From jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Wed Oct 08 09:12:48 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 08 Oct 2003 09:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web41902.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.93.153]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.22) id 1A7GvX-0002Va-Ii for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 08 Oct 2003 09:12:39 -0700 Message-ID: <20031008144034.98892.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.49.74.2] by web41902.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 08 Oct 2003 07:40:34 PDT Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 07:40:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Jorge "Llambías" Subject: [lojban] Re: consolation To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 6382 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --- Martin Bays wrote: > cu'u la xod. mi'e la xod na.e la xorxes u'i > > Perhaps {lo nu broda cu mulno} <==> {ba'o mo'u broda}, since the > > LHS is tenseless so the RHS should be tenseless too. > > Hmmm... I see your point, but I'm not sure using multiple ZAhO in a single > tense gives a meaningful tense, at least in CLL Lojban. It is grammatical, why would it not be meaningful? CLL doesn't mention multiple ZAhO explicitly, but it does have a multiple number ROI example, which follows the same principle: >>Note the difference between: >> >>10.13) mi pare'u paroi klama le zarci >> I [first time] [one time] go-to the store. >> For the first time, I go to the store once. >> >>and >>10.14) mi paroi pare'u klama le zarci >> I [one time] [first time] go-to the store. >> There is one occasion on which I go to >> the store for the first time. So {ba'o mo'u broda} would be the aftermath of the completion of brodaing, and {mo'u ba'o broda} would be the completion of the aftermath, if that ever makes sense. > I would interpret > that as, if anything, "At some glorked point in time, something both is > having broda-ed and is at the point of completion of broda-ing" - which > makes no sense. That might be more like {ba'o je mo'u}. > > > - for states (and activities?), {le nu broda cu mulno} means something > > > along the lines of broda being as true as possible during the > > > state/activity. > > > > Yes, I suppose that it has to work for activities too: > > > > le nu mi bajra cu mulxadba ze'a le pamoi mentu gi'eku'i > > mulno ze'a le drata temci > > My running was half-hearted for the first minutes, but > > to the full for the rest of the time. > > > > 'K. Though again, your non-CLL use of tense seems strange to me, however > useful. What's non-CLL about that? CLL: >>12.12) loi snime cu carvi >> ze'u le ca dunra >> some-of-the-mass-of snow rains >> [long time interval] the [present] winter. >> Snow falls during this winter. > > > - for point-events...? Both interpretations make sense. > > > > Do you have an example? > > No. But only because I don't really understand point events, except as > another way of looking at states/activities/processes - which is why I > said both the state and process version make sense. Right. > > > - for objects, mulno's other, three-place structure applies. > > > > I suppose we could say that for events the full place structure > > applies too, with x2 being {le ka ce'u fasnu}: > > > > le nu mi klama le zarci cu mulno le ka fasnu} > > My going to the market is complete in its occurring. > > > > le nu mi gleki cu mulno le ka fasnu > > My being happy is complete in its occurring. > > Sounds reasonable. Alternatively you could take the event definition to be > primitive, and define the object one in terms of it: > > {ke'a mulno le ka [ce'u] broda} :<==> {le nu ke'a broda cu mulno} > > But then we have the problem of whether {le nu ke'a broda} is a state or > a process - {mi ca mulno le ka jmive} could be either "I have completed > the process of living [and am dead]" or "I am completely alive". > > And if not that, then how in general to interpret the x2 of mulno? Indeed {le nu mi jmive cu ca mulno}, "my life is now full/finished" is ambiguous, too, depending on whether we are thinking of life as a process or as a state. (The gi'uste definition of jmive suggests the state as the basic interpretation, though.) mu'o mi'e xorxes __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com