From sentto-44114-21444-1073698790-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Fri Jan 09 17:42:38 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 09 Jan 2004 17:42:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.102]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Af892-0004x6-Rn for lojban-in@lojban.org; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 17:42:32 -0800 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-21444-1073698790-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.95] by n34.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Jan 2004 01:39:50 -0000 X-Sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42991 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2004 01:39:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Jan 2004 01:39:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lmdeliver01.st1.spray.net) (212.78.202.210) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2004 01:39:49 -0000 Received: from lmfilto02.st1.spray.net (lmfilto02.st1.spray.net [212.78.202.66]) by lmdeliver01.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3AD79C93; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:39:48 +0100 (MET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lmfilto02.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48CBF5783; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:39:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from lmsmtp02.st1.spray.net ([212.78.202.112]) by localhost (lmfilto02.st1.spray.net [212.78.202.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23845-08; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:39:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from oemcomputer (host213-121-68-57.surfport24.v21.co.uk [213.121.68.57]) by lmsmtp02.st1.spray.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B320F5B685; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 02:39:46 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <001001c3d71a$a47d4320$02e1fea9@oemcomputer> To: , "hfroark" References: Organization: Livagian Consulate X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at spray.net X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 212.78.202.210 From: "And Rosta" X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:19:30 -0000 Subject: [lojban] Re: On not using du for is Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-archive-position: 6959 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: a.rosta@lycos.co.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ro(r)k: > At http://people.fix.no/arj/lojban/malglico.html > the example "ti du le mi patfu" is given as malglico for > "ti patfu mi". The main reason is that one is not taking advantage > of the place structures of the brivla. > > So, if I were speaking of my mother as it is usually understood in > English, I would say "ti mamta mi". "ti du le mi mamta" isn't wrong, > but means the same as "ti du le mi pe mamta" and "ti du le mamta pe > mi". That isn't incorrect; the woman described by "le mamta be mi > be'o" is associated with me in some way (by being my mother), but it > is unclear. But suppose I actually want the looser association > meant by "pe". The example that I have thought of for this is a > Lamaze class. The woman that I am describing by using "le mamta pe > mi" is unlikely to be "le mamta be mi be'o". It's possible (if only > in theory in the case of me and my mother), but it certainly isn't > implied. > > Now my question is how would I best express "ti du le mamta pe mi" > without the "du"? "ti patfu mi" and "ti du le patfu be mi" are *not* synonymous. The former -- in close translation -- means "This sires me". The latter means "This is him, who is one that sires me". Therefore there is no trivial du-less paraphrase of "ti du le mamta pe mi". "ti du le mi patfu" is malglico only when the speaker intends the meaning "ti patfu mi". When the speaker genuinely intends the meaning "ti du le mi patfu", it is not malglico. The malgliconess comes simply from meaning X but saying Y, because Y more closely resembles the we X is expressed in English. --And. To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: lojban-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/