From sentto-44114-21621-1077244471-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 18:35:09 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.105]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Au0VK-0008CP-VM for lojban-in@lojban.org; Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:35:03 -0800 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-21621-1077244471-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.95] by n37.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2004 02:34:31 -0000 X-Sender: xeubie@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 98415 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2004 02:34:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Feb 2004 02:34:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.83) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2004 02:34:29 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.158] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Feb 2004 02:34:29 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.83 From: "la_okus" X-Originating-IP: 69.162.47.2 X-Yahoo-Profile: la_okus MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 02:34:29 -0000 Subject: [lojban] preposition disposition Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 7124 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: xeubie@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Did you know that different languages use prepositions in different ways, for different reasons, at different times? Probably, but it wasn't until recently that this was made completely clear to me, and wasn't until even more recently that I realized it was a pretty good reason to favor lojban's predicate system. I've liked lojban for a while, mostly because it feels professional and complete unlike any other conlang, but one thing that I've always wondered is what advantage predicates have over the usual preposition/postposition system. The prospect of using se/te/ve/xe to create descriptors was enticing, but what really convinced me was the idea that we could avoid the apparent preposition disagreement of natural languages. Here's what I mean: English = French _to_ the opera = _à_ l'opéra. _to_ France = _en_ France _to_ express my feelings = _pour_ exprimer mes sentiments the train _to_ Paris = le train _de_ Paris in time _to_ the music = en mesure _avec_ la musique French = English rêver _à_ quelque chose = to dream _about_ something aller _à_ l'école = to go _to_ school être _à_ la maison = to be _at_ home être payé _à_ l'heure = to be paid _by_ the hour ce n'ést pas _à_ moi de le dire = it's not _for_ me to say il l'a fait _à_ sa manière = he did it _in_ his own way A single preposition from one language can be translated by any number of prepositions from the other language. In addition, some verbs that do require a preposition in English don't take one in French, and vice versa. These examples are from http:// members.aol.com/sylvanz/gv16.htm, which is a page about esperanto. Apparently, esperanto is just as complicated, but the page argues that esperanto doesn't force you to use the right preposition for each verb because it allows you to use "je", a preposition with no specific meaning. Judge as you may. From personal experience, I know that Japanese sometimes disagrees with english as well. The verb "au" means to meet, but the japanese don't say "I meet friends", they say "tomodachi ni au", which is more like "I meet to friends". Would you agree that lojban avoids this problem? Of course you would. I'm just making this thread because I'm bored, so take it wherever you want. I want to attend this board more often because I've decided to officially join the project (however that is done). co'o mi'e okus To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: lojban-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/