From sentto-44114-21889-1080598981-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Mon Mar 29 14:24:04 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:24:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.103]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1B85Ak-0008E2-9V for lojban-in@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 14:23:58 -0800 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-21889-1080598981-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.67.194] by n35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Mar 2004 22:23:02 -0000 X-Sender: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 24718 invoked from network); 29 Mar 2004 22:23:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m12.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 29 Mar 2004 22:23:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.reutershealth.com) (65.246.141.36) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Mar 2004 22:23:00 -0000 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA27362; Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:16:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:22:54 -0500 To: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Cc: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <20040329222254.GJ8898@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <20040329070110.GO6569@digitalkingdom.org> <20040329120955.GB16482@ccil.org> <20040329200059.GR6569@digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: <20040329200059.GR6569@digitalkingdom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.246.141.36 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:22:54 -0500 Subject: [lojban] Re: "pu" versus "pu ku" and LR(1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 7393 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jcowan@reutershealth.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Robin Lee Powell scripsit: > Heh. Too late: > > da poi cribe roroi xagji > ({da KU} VAU)] KU'O>} {xagji VAU}) Okay, make it "da poi cribe cu roroi xagji", then. I always have the tendency to skip "cu" when a tense is present, despite the dangers of that course. > > Consider these four sentences: > > > > 1) da poi cribe roroiku zo'u da xagji > > 2) roroiku da poi cribe zo'u da xagji > > 3) da poi cribe cu roroi xagji > > 4) roroi xagji fa da poi cribe > > > > There is no doubt that 1 means there's a bear that's always hungry > > (false) and that 2 means there's always a hungry bear somewhere > > (true), and that 4 is the same as 2. The question is, is 3 the same > > as 2 or the same as 1? > > I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand ordering issues well at all. Think of them as nested loops (sometimes looping over all instances, sometimes looping over just one). Example #1 means: for (b = a certain bear) foreach t (all times) at time t, b is hungry i.e. "there is a bear who is always hungry". Probably false. Example #2 means: foreach t (all times) for (b = a certain bear) at time t, b is hungry i.e. "there is always some hungry bear". Probably true. Now in #3 and #4 the ordering is the same as in #1 and #2 respectively, and presumably #3 = #1 and #4 = #2. However, #3 and #4 use tenses on the selbri rather than free-floating tense+KU. If we apply the selbri-NA vs. NAKU rules, then #3 = #2 because the tense moves to the front of the prenex (outermost loop). -- Knowledge studies others / Wisdom is self-known; John Cowan Muscle masters brothers / Self-mastery is bone; jcowan@reutershealth.com Content need never borrow / Ambition wanders blind; www.ccil.org/~cowan Vitality cleaves to the marrow / Leaving death behind. --Tao 33 (Bynner) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: lojban-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/