From fracture@allusion.net Wed Apr 07 16:36:56 2004
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 07 Apr 2004 16:36:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ms-smtp-01.texas.rr.com ([24.93.47.40] helo=ms-smtp-01-eri0.texas.rr.com)
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30)
	id 1BBMbC-0005tQ-9T
	for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2004 16:36:50 -0700
Received: from fracture (cs24349-133.austin.rr.com [24.243.49.133])
	by ms-smtp-01-eri0.texas.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id i37NallK014369
	for <lojban-list@lojban.org>; Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:36:47 -0500 (CDT)
Received: by fracture (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Wed,  7 Apr 2004 18:52:23 -0500
From: "Jordan DeLong" <fracture@allusion.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:52:23 -0500
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Subject: [lojban] Re: Opinions on "mi viska le sa .i mi cusku zo .djan."
Message-ID: <20040407235223.GB66109@allusion.net>
References: <20040407033605.31989.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> <016d01c41ca2$bce943a0$a2e1fea9@oemcomputer>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1;	protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uQr8t48UFsdbeI+V"
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <016d01c41ca2$bce943a0$a2e1fea9@oemcomputer>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i
X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine
X-archive-position: 7493
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org
Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org
X-original-sender: fracture@allusion.net
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org
X-list: lojban-list


--uQr8t48UFsdbeI+V
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 02:16:18PM +0100, And Rosta wrote:
> XORXES:
> > But saving a syllable here and there is not that much power. The
> > ability to use names as brivla gives you a lot more expressive power:
> >=20
> >    ro djan poi mi djuno cu xabju le merko
> >    Every John I know lives in the US.
>=20
> Jordan:
> > [I think you meant sanji; djuno can't be used like that]
> > Realistically, you'd likely say something more like
> > ro me la djan. ku poi mi sanji cu xabju le merko
>=20
> I support CMENE=3DBRIVLA, and maybe the equivalence of "djan" and=20
> "me la djan", but "ro me la djan" doesn't mean "every John (that
> I know)" (in the usual interpretation of that phrase).
> Rather, "djan" and "me la djan" would mean "every instance/subkind
> of the Kind that I am calling 'djan'". (Of course, the Kind that
> I call 'djan' may indeed be the Kind corresponding to the
> set of all things that are called 'John' (or that I call
> 'djan').)

The above doesn't make sense to me....

But you got me thinking about {me}, and I think it is incorrect.

{me <SUMTI>} returns a predicate for `x1 is <SUMTI>-esque in aspect
x2'.  What does {da me la djan.} mean?  Unless the zo'e x2 is
interpreted to mean {leka du} it doesn't make any sense.

So I suppose you could use {du}?  {ro du be su'o la djan.} is
everything equal to one of the johns.

Probably the most explicit way to say "every john that I know",
without the ambiguity in xorxes' suggested {ro la djan.}:

    ro cmima be la'i djan. ku poi mi sanji ke'a cu xabju le merko

--=20
Jordan DeLong
fracture@allusion.net

--uQr8t48UFsdbeI+V
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
Content-Disposition: inline

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (FreeBSD)

iD8DBQFAdJQ2DrrilS51AZ8RAjNFAKDK49RGK/3D2XXP1VQkAn25PblF/gCgvwGj
aZkPhSMWnGuwOM37lTRL7yw=
=bpZl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--uQr8t48UFsdbeI+V--