From sentto-44114-22003-1081477169-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Thu Apr 08 19:20:14 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 08 Apr 2004 19:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.66.83]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BBlcl-00065n-BE for lojban-in@lojban.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2004 19:20:07 -0700 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-44114-22003-1081477169-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [66.218.66.30] by n27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Apr 2004 02:19:30 -0000 X-Sender: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 26703 invoked from network); 9 Apr 2004 02:19:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Apr 2004 02:19:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.reutershealth.com) (65.246.141.36) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Apr 2004 02:19:28 -0000 Received: from skunk.reutershealth.com (mail [65.246.141.36]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA01564; Thu, 8 Apr 2004 22:13:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by skunk.reutershealth.com (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Thu, 8 Apr 2004 22:19:16 -0400 To: Bob LeChevalier Cc: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <20040409021916.GB13184@skunk.reutershealth.com> References: <20040330055426.GD27631@ccil.org> <20040329070110.GO6569@digitalkingdom.org> <20040329120955.GB16482@ccil.org> <20040329231516.GU6569@digitalkingdom.org> <20040330055426.GD27631@ccil.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20040407072603.0336d170@pop.east.cox.net> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040407072603.0336d170@pop.east.cox.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 65.246.141.36 From: jcowan@reutershealth.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 22:19:16 -0400 Subject: [lojban] Re: Robin Confused (was Re: Re: "pu" versus "pu ku" and LR(1)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 7508 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jcowan@reutershealth.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Bob LeChevalier scripsit: > I'm afraid of loosening the rules too much if not necessary, for fear we > will end up with something like the PA string situation and the UI string > situation where everything is grammatical but interpretation is potentially > a nightmare. The trouble is that we're already there. Since any string of tense cmavo can be made grammatical in term_83 context by inserting judicious ku's, which the parser will cheerfully do, all the effort put into simple_tense_modal_972 and its children was basically pointless. Those rules are only effective in limited contexts like a description sumti, so we've created a situation where the rules effectively apply in some places but not others -- very non-Lojbanic. > The X-ku Y-ku > breakup at least gives an interpretation for odd strings, even if it may > not be the one people would like. No, it just pushes the interpretation question off on what it means to have multiple tense-ku's in a bridi. Nothing changes, really. Does puku ze'aku mean the same as puze'a, for instance? Nobody knows. Tentatively, I would favor a loosening of the grammar (this is a real byfy change) whereby arbitrary sequences of tense cmavo are permitted in any context, but only the existing permitted sequences have standard interpretations. This would preserve most of the Red Book, and would only require a notation that tense-cmavo sequences other than the known ones do not yet have defined meanings. -- John Cowan www.ccil.org/~cowan www.reutershealth.com Micropayment advocates mistakenly believe that efficient allocation of resources is the purpose of markets. Efficiency is a byproduct of market systems, not their goal. The reasons markets work are not because users have embraced efficiency but because markets are the best place to allow users to maximize their preferences, and very often their preferences are not for conservation of cheap resources. --Clay Shirkey ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/GSaulB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: lojban-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/