From jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Fri Jul 23 07:27:46 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web41901.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.93.152]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Bo11M-0003xO-Ou for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:27:37 -0700 Message-ID: <20040723142706.16630.qmail@web41901.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.49.74.2] by web41901.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:27:06 PDT Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 07:27:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Jorge "Llambías" Subject: [lojban] Re: Projects To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 8287 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list reverendzow: > Additionally, I am finding a need for a schematically defined syntax > for Lojban. Could you expand a bit more on what you mean by that? > In attempting to create such a definition, I often come > across logical constructs which have no Lojban names. For instance, > what shall we call words that possess brivla? I have come up with > ka'eserafsi, although my construction may be flawed, and a word based > on fu'ivla may be better. I guess you mean words that possess _rafsi_. Then {selrafsi} or just {se rafsi} will work. These will be all the gismu (which possess at least the four letter rafsi formed by dropping the last vowel) and some cmavo. If you mean words that can be components of lujvo, then this means almost every word, because you can use {zei} to join almost any pair of words into a lujvo (exactly which words the exceptions are is a matter to be investigated, but they are very few: y, si, sa, su, bu?, zo?, zoi?, ba'e?, zei itself?). > The words being defined, > however, could be changed, and (if changed properly) with the sole > consequence of requiring /piji'i lo'i lojban ve tavla do/ to learn > the new vocabulary. This is probably out of the question for Lojban at this stage, but there is a yahoogroups list (engelang) where you could discuss such ideas. The list hasn't been very active lately though. > The reason I think this may be a good thing to > do is that I doubt sufficient research has been put into the > worldwide pronuncibility and comprehensibility of the language. For > instance, most Japanese have trouble differentiating American L/R, > and pronouncing our R. On the other hand, if you only use distinctions that can be easily made and recognized by everybody, you end up with a need for longer words to make up for the small inventory of phonemes. I agree that Lojban's phoneme inventory is not especially good, though it is not especially bad either. (It is almost identical to the Esperanto inventory, with one or two minor differences only: Esperanto doesn't have Lojban's "y", and it has ts, tc, dj as single phonemes.) > I'm sure there are other examples, but I'm > only a phoneticist by hobby, and know only scraps of languages. I > also think a more optimal fashion of creating the smallest words is > possible. Lastly, I wonder wether any consultation of experts in > computerized voice-recognition has taken place. I don't think so. > Their input on > viable sounds to include in a language could be invaluable. The > point is: it is quite likely that the vocabulary needs serious > optimization/reform if widespread adoption of Lojban is to occur. Maybe, but such a re-doing of the words will almost certainly be unacceptable to the existing Lojban community. mu'o mi'e xorxes __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail