From jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Fri Jul 23 20:45:37 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web41902.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.93.153]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BoDTW-0001j2-KS for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 20:45:30 -0700 Message-ID: <20040723203819.60265.qmail@web41902.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.49.74.2] by web41902.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:38:19 PDT Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 13:38:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Jorge "Llambías" Subject: [lojban] Re: Projects To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 8312 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Forwarded from reverendzow, as it was meant for the list. > --- In lojban@yahoogroups.com, Jorge "Llambías" > wrote: > > reverendzow: > > > Additionally, I am finding a need for a schematically defined > syntax > > > for Lojban. > > > > Could you expand a bit more on what you mean by that? > > Essentially, this is a series of structural definitions like: > > a bridi is one of the following: > * a sumti, followed by a selbri, followed by 0-4 sumti, depending on > which selbri is used > * a sumti, followed by {se|te|ve|xe}, followed by a selbri, followed > by 0-4 sumti, depending on which selbri is used > * etc. > > > > In attempting to create such a definition, I often come > > > across logical constructs which have no Lojban names. For > instance, > > > what shall we call words that possess brivla? I have come up > with > > > ka'eserafsi, although my construction may be flawed, and a word > based > > > on fu'ivla may be better. > > > > I guess you mean words that possess _rafsi_. Then {selrafsi} or just > > {se rafsi} will work. These will be all the gismu (which possess at > > least the four letter rafsi formed by dropping the last vowel) and > > some cmavo. If you mean words that can be components of lujvo, then > > this means almost every word, because you can use {zei} to join > almost > > any pair of words into a lujvo (exactly which words the exceptions > are > > is a matter to be investigated, but they are very few: y, si, sa, > su, > > bu?, zo?, zoi?, ba'e?, zei itself?). > > Can you then form a lujvo by doing gismuzeigismu? Either way, I feel > I'll need some clarification on the formation of lujvo. > > > > The words being defined, > > > however, could be changed, and (if changed properly) with the > sole > > > consequence of requiring /piji'i lo'i lojban ve tavla do/ to > learn > > > the new vocabulary. > > > > This is probably out of the question for Lojban at this stage, > > but there is a yahoogroups list (engelang) where you could discuss > > such ideas. The list hasn't been very active lately though. > > That's two negatives so far, but I feel that significant improvement > would find the community willing to convert. Again, not that such > improvement is even possible. > > > > The reason I think this may be a good thing to > > > do is that I doubt sufficient research has been put into the > > > worldwide pronuncibility and comprehensibility of the language. > For > > > instance, most Japanese have trouble differentiating American > L/R, > > > and pronouncing our R. > > > > On the other hand, if you only use distinctions that can be easily > > made and recognized by everybody, you end up with a need for longer > > words to make up for the small inventory of phonemes. I agree that > > Lojban's phoneme inventory is not especially good, though it is not > > especially bad either. (It is almost identical to the Esperanto > > inventory, with one or two minor differences only: Esperanto > doesn't > > have Lojban's "y", and it has ts, tc, dj as single phonemes.) > > It certainly isn't especially bat, but there are problems also with > x/', and as a smarter-than-average American, I find y both > disturbing, and creeping into my pronunciations of Lojban. And as a > hobby-phoneticist, the idea of using ts, tc, and dj like that just > torques me. > > > > I'm sure there are other examples, but I'm > > > only a phoneticist by hobby, and know only scraps of languages. > I > > > also think a more optimal fashion of creating the smallest words > is > > > possible. Lastly, I wonder wether any consultation of experts in > > > computerized voice-recognition has taken place. > > > > I don't think so. > > > > > Their input on > > > viable sounds to include in a language could be invaluable. The > > > point is: it is quite likely that the vocabulary needs serious > > > optimization/reform if widespread adoption of Lojban is to occur. > > > > Maybe, but such a re-doing of the words will almost certainly > > be unacceptable to the existing Lojban community. > > I again disagree on the principle that (hopefully) improvements which > would lead to a major flourishing of the Lojban community would be > considered worth the sacrifice. Or maybe I'm just over-optimistic. > > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign! http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/