From sentto-44114-22788-1090966567-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Jul 27 15:16:47 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n46.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.67.23]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BpaFT-0007wN-P8 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 15:16:39 -0700 Received: from [66.218.66.156] by n46.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 27 Jul 2004 22:16:08 -0000 X-Sender: a.rosta@v21.me.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 58627 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2004 22:16:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Jul 2004 22:16:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO heineken.flexi-surf.co.uk) (62.41.128.20) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 2004 22:16:06 -0000 Received: from oemcomputer (host81-7-53-70.surfport24.v21.co.uk [81.7.53.70]) by heineken.flexi-surf.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id i6RLVee32024 for ; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:31:40 +0100 Message-ID: <00de01c47427$41e6ae40$fd3f0751@oemcomputer> To: References: <20040727194035.93302.qmail@web41907.mail.yahoo.com> <00d101c47424$785fb780$fd3f0751@oemcomputer> <4106D1F4.9040005@thestonecutters.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 62.41.128.20 From: "And Rosta" X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:15:34 +0100 Subject: [lojban] Re: Test sentences Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-archive-position: 8345 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: a.rosta@v21.me.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list xod: > And Rosta wrote: > > >xorxes: > > > >>36. Cicero is Tully > >> > >> la kikeros cu du la tulis > > Thank you for not translating it as la siseros. A pedant, in the Nick Nicholas mould, say, would prefer kikeron and tulius. > >Given the ragbag and decontextualized nature of the test sentence > >collection, the translation is reasonable, but as you are aware, > >it completely sidesteps the issues that make (36) a challenging > >test sentence in the first place. Change it to, say, "John > >does not believe that Cicero is Tully", and the challenge becomes > >more apparent. (The solution is to have brivla for "Cicero" > >and "Tully" & then it all works out hunkydory.) > > Why? Because we're using "me"? "Cicero is Tully" is sensitive to intensional contexts (e.g. as x2 of "believe"). Lojban can capture opaque & transparent readings when brivla are involved, but not when cmene are involved. Cmene are like {le} gadri, and are insensitive to intensional contexts. --And. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/GSaulB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: lojban-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/