From sentto-44114-22792-1091042636-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Jul 28 12:24:38 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n42.grp.scd.yahoo.com ([66.218.67.17]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.32) id 1Bpu2P-00076f-H7 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:24:29 -0700 Received: from [66.218.66.27] by n42.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Jul 2004 19:23:57 -0000 X-Sender: a.rosta@v21.me.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 89782 invoked from network); 28 Jul 2004 19:23:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Jul 2004 19:23:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO heineken.flexi-surf.co.uk) (62.41.128.20) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Jul 2004 19:23:54 -0000 Received: from oemcomputer (host81-7-58-205.surfport24.v21.co.uk [81.7.58.205]) by heineken.flexi-surf.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id i6SIdQe10933 for ; Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:39:26 +0100 Message-ID: <015901c474d8$6bca6240$fd3f0751@oemcomputer> To: References: <20040728134106.54081.qmail@web41904.mail.yahoo.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 62.41.128.20 From: "And Rosta" X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 20:23:30 +0100 Subject: [lojban] Re: Test sentences Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-archive-position: 8349 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: a.rosta@v21.me.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list xorxes: > And: > > "Cicero is Tully" is sensitive to intensional contexts (e.g. > > as x2 of "believe"). Lojban can capture opaque & transparent > > readings when brivla are involved, but not when cmene are > > involved. Cmene are like {le} gadri, and are insensitive > > to intensional contexts. > > Right, because la and le are always the name/description > according to the speaker. > > So {la kikeron du la tulius} means "the one I call 'Cicero' > is also the one I call 'Tully'", but {la djan na krici > lo du'u la kikeron du la tulius} means "Of the one > I call both 'Cicero' and 'Tully', John does not believe > it is self-identical", which is not what we want to say. > > Perhaps we can say: {la djan na krici lo du'u lu'e zo kikeron > du lu'e zo tulius}, "John does not believe that the referent > of 'Cicero' is also the referent of 'Tully'", assuming the > brivla behind {lu'e} is within the scope of John's belief. Who knows -- it depends on what {lu'e} ends up meaning, & a load of other conventions yet to be settled. But as I said, Lojban can definitely capture the relevant distinction by using brivla ("du zei kikeron", say) instead of cmene. --And. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/GSaulB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: lojban-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/