From sentto-44114-23187-1098148391-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Tue Oct 19 14:18:38 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from n20a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com ([66.94.237.49]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CK1NE-0005NX-RU for lojban-in@lojban.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:18:29 -0700 Received: from [66.218.69.1] by n20.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Oct 2004 01:13:12 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.97] by mailer1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Oct 2004 01:13:12 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: a.rosta@v21.me.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 37289 invoked from network); 19 Oct 2004 01:13:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m14.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Oct 2004 01:13:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO heineken.flexi-surf.co.uk) (62.41.128.20) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Oct 2004 01:13:10 -0000 Received: from oemcomputer (host81-7-56-78.surfport24.v21.co.uk [81.7.56.78]) by heineken.flexi-surf.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id i9INnx818922; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:49:59 +0100 Message-ID: <007b01c4b578$ae531540$51248cd9@oemcomputer> To: , References: <20041018165014.GI22470@chain.digitalkingdom.org> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 62.41.128.20 From: "And Rosta" X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 22:11:20 +0100 Subject: [lojban] Re: [hedybos@hotmail.com: Feedback (long, sorry)))] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-archive-position: 8788 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: a.rosta@v21.me.uk Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list > I am not anywhere near enough of a linguist to handle this. > > -Robin > > ----- Forwarded message from Hedy Bos ----- > > Subject: Feedback (long, sorry))) > From: Hedy Bos > To: lojban@lojban.org > > Dear Sir(s), > > I have the following feedback on Lojban: > > -The denotation is hell. A period expressing a phoneme? Why? Its phonetic realization is a glottal stop or silence of perceptible duration. That's strange allophony, but the symbolization doesn't seem inappropriate. If orthographic spaces are used, the period may be omitted. > And what?s with > the phobia for the symbol ?h?? If your defence is ?it is used only to > separate vowels?, then there still would be no reason why the symbol ?h? > could n?t be used. The rationale is that 'consonants' and 'vowels' play an important role in Lojban morphology, but the /'/ phoneme (which can be realized not only by [h] but also by any voiceless fricative other than [x, f, s, S]) is not -- in terms of morphological patterning -- a consonant. But in fact is a permitted allograph of <'>. That said, <'> does tend to rile people & was not well-chosen. > The first basic rule in lexicography is ?be consistent?. If you > choose to go roman, go roman all the way! Don?t use diacretic (and > illogical) symbols that will chase beginners away instantaneously! > It?s pretty much illegible like this. The apostrophe I can live with, > but don?t incorporate something like a period in the system. Many > languages express a normal phoneme such as a glottal stop with an > apostrophe (or an alif). Use an ?h? for all I care. Don?t use a dot. It's rather too late for such advice. The orthography is internally consistent, but it does jar with traditional use of the roman alphabet. > -it?s either under- or overspecified. If it really is such a logical > language then let logic do it?s job and dare to make a choice for either > system. Especially the deictic/locative marking is hopelessly > overspecified in an innatural manner. I think your points are reasonable. But, you say: > Nobody needs an superspecified form. If it does, it will come > naturally, when it?s not a pidgin anymore. The creators of the language had to choose whether to create just the rudiments of the language, and leave the majority of the language up to natural evolution, or to create a fully-fledged language. Some people preferred the former strategy, some preferred the latter. The final product is a slightly haphazard compromise. > -the assumption that natural languages are inadequate aggravates > me. I am convinced that if something does not occur in a natural > language this must be for a (simple) reason: it doesn?t work! I think you're dead wrong. Natural language is as good as it needs to be to perform the basic functions it evolved to perform, but it is no better than it needs to be. Its most obvious deficiency is that it is rife with ambiguity (logical and syntactic). Because people are such good disambiguators, the ambiguity is only a problem where precision is really crucial, such as in academic or legalistic writing, or in the speech of Vulcan-like people who want to be at pains to say exactly what they mean. This is not to say that Lojban solves that problem, but the notion that natural language cannot be improved upon betrays an ignorance of the nature of evolution as opposed to conscious design. > So the following irritations come forth out of this opposition: > > -why so many arguments for one stem? Why not express these with > prepositions? This would be more logical and would cause the number of > illogical arguments one would have to learn in order to be able to use a > stem to it?s fullest extense to decrease tremendously. There is no language > that would refuse to express prepositional phrases in such manner. Because > this is more logical ?nd it decreases complicated lines of thoughts when > using a stem. Some predicates are somewhat 'bloated' -- that is, they have more arguments than they need to. There already are preposition-like words (in word class BAI), so your suggestion already exists in the language. But tagging arguments with prepositions increases longwindedness and doesn't simplify the learning process. E.g.: > For example: > > barja bar x1 is a tavern/bar/pub ?serving x2 to > audience/patrons x3? > The x2 and x3 can be expressed more logically with some basic prepositions > in my opinion, which would save everybody a lot of puzzling. If barja still had an x2 and x3 argument, it wouldn't ease the learning if x2 and x3 had to be marked by prepositions. Certainly one can have a predicate meaning 'x1 is a tavern', and leave the other arguments implicit, but since a tavern is a tavern only by virtue of having patrons, it makes sense to specify this as an argument. > -why use separate stems for compounding? It does make the entire > utterance shorter, but it also increases the number of forms to be > learned. Even more so, there is no unambiguous way to derive the > compound-stem from the original stem! Why not choose for a simple > head-dependent construction? It will increase the entire compound > with one syllable only. Most languages work just fine with this > system. Some do use a possessive marker, such as > Roman languages, or a clitic such as Bantu-languages. The only languages > (consistently) changing a stem are root-based languages with a skeletal > character (Afro-Asiatic) . Either switch to that (for the sake of logic > and/or consistency) or accept that a compound will end up with four > syllables. Never hurt nobody. The language has a settled design. Switching to an Afroasiatic-style morphology would make for a different language, which anybody is free to create. There are few people who would defend the design of Lojban's morphology; it is monumentally perverse. But Lojban did not evolve through a process in which people kept on revising the design until they got it right. People wanted to be able to use it as soon as possible, not wait for it to be perfected. So the end product is another compromise between people who prioritized a good design and people who prioritized Lojban's avowed aim of creating a stable and usable version of Loglan as soon as possible. This is why people who discover Lojban are so often simultaneously attracted to it and repelled or grieved by it. If a camel is a horse designed by a committee, Lojban is a language created by a committee: the committee had many exceptionally clever members, but inevitably they were not all of one mind. So what you have is one grossly imperfect language that you can actually use *now*, instead of one language that is getting ever closer to perfection but is not ready to use yet. --And. ------------------------ Yahoo! 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