From sentto-44114-23451-1101073344-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Sun Nov 21 13:43:07 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:43:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from n13a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com ([66.94.237.24]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CVzU0-00013w-Bg for lojban-in@lojban.org; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 13:42:56 -0800 Received: from [66.218.66.59] by n13.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2004 21:42:24 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.199] by mailer8.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Nov 2004 21:42:24 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 65465 invoked from network); 21 Nov 2004 21:42:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 21 Nov 2004 21:42:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakermmtao12.cox.net) (68.230.240.27) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 2004 21:42:23 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (really [68.228.12.146]) by lakermmtao12.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with ESMTP id <20041121214155.ZFOI8344.lakermmtao12.cox.net@[127.0.0.1]> for ; Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:41:55 -0500 Message-ID: <41A10BCE.1090509@lojban.org> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: lojban@yahoogroups.com References: <20041120170505.GO28493@chain.digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: <20041120170505.GO28493@chain.digitalkingdom.org> X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 68.230.240.27 From: Bob LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:42:38 -0500 Subject: [lojban] Re: Archivist/Founders: {ri'a nai} vs. {se mau nai} Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-archive-position: 9026 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Robin Lee Powell wrote: >I'm looking at the BAI* cmavo, and I notice that {ri'a nai} (and >{ki'u nai}, and so on) all mean something like "despite (tagged >sumti)", whereas the only non-causative BAI NAI sumti ({se mau nai} >and {se ma'e nai} mean something like "it is not the case that >(tagged sumti)". > >The "despite" thing seems to be a huge wart, and I'm wondering if >you guys had anything in mind for BAI+NAI *in general*. > >-Robin JCB created causative tags before and separately from modals and both separate from case tags; then (he or we) discovered that they were more or less identical in grammar. The concept that all BAIs should have similar and predictable semantics (based on place structures) came very late, indeed actually the basic design was done (by and large, the concept of systematic semantics was one that JCB and later I had rejected as an impossible dream, not worth the effort of trying - then Nick came along and tackled jvajvo, and hammering out BAI came about the same time.). If there was any thought to "general" systematic rules for negation of BAI, and you can't find something in CLL, I would look in the old negation paper just in case, but would probably guess that we did not consider it. But I should think that the causals will be more or less in line with whatever you come up with - I believe that we found that the semantics of "despite" and "nevertheless" are predictable from contradictory negation of sumti. You say that they are a "wart", but how so? lojbab ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/GSaulB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: lojban-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/