From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Mar 25 13:21:38 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DEwFG-00015W-Nq for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:21:30 -0800 Received: from n4a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com ([66.94.237.38]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DEwFE-00014Y-I7 for lojban-in@lojban.org; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 13:21:30 -0800 DomainKey-Signature: Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Mar 2005 21:20:53 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.95] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Mar 2005 21:20:53 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: ben@goertzel.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 77901 invoked from network); 25 Mar 2005 21:20:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m7.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Mar 2005 21:20:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO intelligenesiscorp.com) (208.234.8.229) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Mar 2005 21:20:51 -0000 Received: from zombiethustra (pcp06586041pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [69.140.24.121]) by intelligenesiscorp.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id j2PLKlj9007701; Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:20:49 -0500 To: "Aleksej R. Serdyukov" , Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <7823629217.20050325225716@yandex.ru> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Originating-IP: 208.234.8.229 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Ben Goertzel" X-Yahoo-Profile: bgoertzel MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:20:55 -0500 Subject: [lojban] Re: Re[2]: tanru Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 9649 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: ben@goertzel.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Alexsej, > BG> So according to my limited knowledge, a nice, clear phrasing would be > BG> ti [cu] ckule fi le cmalu nanla > BG> But your phrasing in terms of a tanru is also correct, though > more ambiguous > > It is actually from "la lojban. mo", and though it is mentioned to be > a little ambiguous, such structure seems to be used very often. > > BG> as the tanru "cmalu nanla ckule" has a lot of possible interpretations > > There is said it does not. What is says there is that the default implied grouping is (cmalu nanla) ckule This is fine, and it says that what we have is a school, modified by "small boy(s)". The parenthetical grouping structure is not ambiguous However, the tanru still doesn't specify whether the boys attend the school, operate the school, or their anatomy is the subject of instruction at the school... This part of the tanru's interpretation is left open for "common sense" interpretation, unlike in the rephrasing I gave. My own taste is to use argument-structure rather than tanru wherever possible, so as to minimize ambiguity. > BG> On the other hand, to say > BG> This-thing is-small in-dimension-"boy" as-compared-with-standard > BG> "school" > BG> you could say > BG> ti cmalu le nanla le ckule > BG> Here, the English-article-like cmavo "le" marks nanla and > ckule as sumti > BG> rather than components of a tanru > > But what if there are some dimensions "boy" and some standards > "school", and I don't know at all which of them are the ones I mean? > If I use "le", won't people ask me about them? Well, "le" is a bit like "the" in English. The referent is left open for the listener to interpret based on context. Lojban doesn't eliminate the need for pragmatics in language interpretation. If you want to specify things more then you use "poi" and associated cmavo. To use a less nonsensical example, here is how I would (perhaps incorrectly, but hey ;-) try to say "this is small in dimension weight as compared to an elephant that eats a lot": ti cmalu le junta le xanto poi mutce le ka citka i.e. in predicatized form small( this, weight, elephant : much(elephant, eating) ) cmalu=small weight= junta xanto = elephant eat = citka ka = process_of : = such that, as in mathematics... (syntax/semantics of "such that" operator poi obtained from p.97 of Beginners...) I.e., I'm saying "This is small in weight, compared to an elephant that displays muchness relative to the property of eating" I'm not sure about the "mutce le ka citka" part, actually ... but this is my best guess based on my beginners' knowledge & understanding... > Hmm, I wonder why they chose the example at all. > I've started to read "Beginner's Guide ...", and made it to somewhere > after numbers, but was confused about long structures with "le??" etc. > > What is the most easy? I found the Beginner's Guide extremely simple and well-written overall, but I thought the section on quantifiers (lei, loi, etc.) was indeed the most difficult to follow. I suggest you pass over that section and read the rest of the book. Then when you read that section again, it will make a lot more sense to you than it did the first time around. At least, that was my own experience last week when I read the book ;-) -- Ben ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater? Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good! http://us.click.yahoo.com/TzSHvD/SOnJAA/79vVAA/GSaulB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Yahoo! 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