From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Apr 08 14:55:21 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 08 Apr 2005 14:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DK1RZ-0006Ft-3p for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 14:55:13 -0700 Received: from n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com ([66.94.237.40]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DK1RW-0006F5-NU for lojban-in@lojban.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 14:55:13 -0700 DomainKey-Signature: Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Apr 2005 21:54:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.195] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Apr 2005 21:54:36 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: ben@goertzel.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15356 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2005 21:54:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Apr 2005 21:54:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO intelligenesiscorp.com) (208.234.8.229) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Apr 2005 21:54:32 -0000 Received: from zombiethustra (pcp06586041pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [69.140.24.121]) by intelligenesiscorp.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id j38LsHQh004943 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:54:19 -0400 To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20050408204144.GC26545@chain.digitalkingdom.org> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Originating-IP: 208.234.8.229 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Ben Goertzel" X-Yahoo-Profile: bgoertzel MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:54:33 -0400 Subject: [lojban] Denoting counterfactual sentences in Lojban? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_020C_01C53C64.05973940" X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 9793 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: ben@goertzel.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ------=_NextPart_000_020C_01C53C64.05973940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I'm slowly continuing my spare-time effort to learn Lojban (begun about a month ago). Having read "Lojban for Beginners" I'm now rereading it and doing all the exercises. Once I'm done with this, I think I'm going to make myself a Lojban language CD to listen to in the car (consisting of the examples in "Lojban for Beginners", spoken in English and then Lojban -- and probably mispronounced and mumbled by me, as diction is not my strong suit...). Anyway, I've run into some doubts in Exercise 7 of Chapter 5: http://ptolemy.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less5summary.htm l Hopefully someone on this list can clear things up for me. I have one significant question -- how to represent hypothetical sentences -- but I probably have made some other small mistakes too which you may correct if you wish. First, consider Exercise 7, part 2: "Susan assumes that Zhang knows that Susan is late." The translation given in the answer key http://ptolemy.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less5answers.htm l is: .i la suzyn. sruma lenu la jan. djuno lenu lerci fa lenu la suzyn. klama Now, this is OK but personally I find it a bit annoying. I found myself wanting to do instead something like .i lenu la suzyn. klama cu lerci ("The event of Susan coming is late") .i la jan jimpe go'i ("Zhang knows the previous.") .i la suzyn. sruma lenu go'i ("Susan assumes the previous.") or else replacing the last of the three sentences with .i ra srumo lenu go'i (using "ra" to refer to "Susan", pretty obviously in context) However, I don't yet know how to mark the second utterance in this chain as hypothetical, so that the listener knows I don't really believe Zhang knows the previous, I'm just saying that Susan assumes so. IN other words, I want to say .i la jan HYP jimpe go'i ("Zhang knows the previous.") where HYP should be substituted by some appropriate cmavo that I haven't noticed in the "Lojban for Beginners" book yet.... Is there a cmavo like this? What is it? If not, what's the equivalent mechanism? For a simpler example of the same issue, consider "Ben does not believe Lojban is English" which should be (?) .i la lojban HYP mintu la glibau .i la ben na sruma go'i [the first sentence here leads to another confusion which is that lojban is a cmene, but I don't know a cmene for English -- glibau is a lujvo not a cmene... I don't like .i la lojban HYP mintu le glibau because this is a posited equivalence between two entities of different types, it seems semantically incorrect even though it may (?) be syntactically allowable. Comments, answers, etc.? -- Ben Goertzel ------=_NextPart_000_020C_01C53C64.05973940 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi all,
 
I'm slowly continuing my spare-time effort to learn Lojban (begun about a month ago).  Having read "Lojban for Beginners" I'm now rereading it and doing all the exercises.  Once I'm done with this, I think I'm going to make myself a Lojban language CD to listen to in the car (consisting of the examples in "Lojban for Beginners", spoken in English and then Lojban -- and probably mispronounced and mumbled by me, as diction is not my strong suit...).
 
Anyway, I've run into some doubts in Exercise 7 of Chapter 5:
 
http://ptolemy.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less5summary.html
 
Hopefully someone on this list can clear things up for me.  I have one significant question -- how to represent hypothetical sentences -- but I probably have made some other small mistakes too which you may correct if you wish.
 
First, consider Exercise 7, part 2:
 
"Susan assumes that Zhang knows that Susan is late."
 
The translation given in the answer key
 
http://ptolemy.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less5answers.html
 
is:
 
.i la suzyn. sruma lenu la jan. djuno lenu lerci fa lenu la suzyn. klama
 
Now, this is OK but personally I find it a bit annoying.  I found myself wanting to do instead something like
 
.i lenu la suzyn. klama cu lerci     ("The event of Susan coming is late")
.i la jan jimpe go'i   ("Zhang knows the previous.")
.i la suzyn. sruma lenu go'i    ("Susan assumes the previous.")
 
or else replacing the last of the three sentences with
 
.i ra srumo lenu go'i (using "ra" to refer to "Susan", pretty obviously in context)
 
However, I don't yet know how to mark the second utterance in this chain as hypothetical, so that the listener knows I don't really believe Zhang knows the previous, I'm just saying that Susan assumes so.  IN other words, I want to say
 
.i la jan HYP jimpe go'i   ("Zhang knows the previous.")
 
where HYP should be substituted by some appropriate cmavo that I haven't noticed in the "Lojban for Beginners" book yet....
 
Is there a cmavo like this?  What is it?  If not, what's the equivalent mechanism?
 
For a simpler example of the same issue, consider
 
"Ben does not believe Lojban is English"
 
which should be (?)
 
.i la lojban HYP mintu la glibau
.i la ben na sruma go'i
 
[the first sentence here leads to another confusion which is that lojban is a cmene, but I don't know a cmene for English -- glibau is a lujvo not a cmene...
 
I don't like
 
.i la lojban HYP mintu le glibau
 
because this is a posited equivalence between two entities of different types, it seems semantically incorrect even though it may (?) be syntactically allowable.
 
Comments, answers, etc.?
 
-- Ben Goertzel
 
 
 
 
 
 


To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com


Yahoo! Groups Links
------=_NextPart_000_020C_01C53C64.05973940--