From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Apr 08 14:58:55 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 08 Apr 2005 14:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DK1V0-0006JV-Bl for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 14:58:46 -0700 Received: from n22a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com ([66.94.237.51]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DK1Ux-0006Iu-TZ for lojban-in@lojban.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2005 14:58:46 -0700 DomainKey-Signature: Received: from [66.218.69.3] by n22.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Apr 2005 21:58:09 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.35] by mailer3.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Apr 2005 21:58:09 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: ben@goertzel.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86350 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2005 21:58:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Apr 2005 21:58:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO intelligenesiscorp.com) (208.234.8.229) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Apr 2005 21:58:07 -0000 Received: from zombiethustra (pcp06586041pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [69.140.24.121]) by intelligenesiscorp.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id j38LvrQK005747 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:57:53 -0400 To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Originating-IP: 208.234.8.229 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Ben Goertzel" X-Yahoo-Profile: bgoertzel MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:58:09 -0400 Subject: [lojban] Re: Denoting counterfactual sentences in Lojban? Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0212_01C53C64.85E63560" X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 9794 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: ben@goertzel.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ------=_NextPart_000_0212_01C53C64.85E63560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Oops, in my previous email I said --- .i lenu la suzyn. klama cu lerci ("The event of Susan coming is late") .i la jan jimpe go'i ("Zhang knows the previous.") .i la suzyn. sruma lenu go'i ("Susan assumes the previous.") --- but the middle sentence shoulda been .i la jan djuno go'i "djuno" for "know" rather than "jimpe" for "understand" ... (though I guess either one will really do given the context) Sorry for my usual sloppiness ;-) -- Ben G or else replacing the last of the three sentences with .i ra srumo lenu go'i (using "ra" to refer to "Susan", pretty obviously in context) However, I don't yet know how to mark the second utterance in this chain as hypothetical, so that the listener knows I don't really believe Zhang knows the previous, I'm just saying that Susan assumes so. IN other words, I want to say .i la jan HYP jimpe go'i ("Zhang knows the previous.") where HYP should be substituted by some appropriate cmavo that I haven't noticed in the "Lojban for Beginners" book yet.... Is there a cmavo like this? What is it? If not, what's the equivalent mechanism? For a simpler example of the same issue, consider "Ben does not believe Lojban is English" which should be (?) .i la lojban HYP mintu la glibau .i la ben na sruma go'i [the first sentence here leads to another confusion which is that lojban is a cmene, but I don't know a cmene for English -- glibau is a lujvo not a cmene... I don't like .i la lojban HYP mintu le glibau because this is a posited equivalence between two entities of different types, it seems semantically incorrect even though it may (?) be syntactically allowable. Comments, answers, etc.? -- Ben Goertzel To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: lojban-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------=_NextPart_000_0212_01C53C64.85E63560 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi all,
 
Oops, in my previous email I said
 
---
 
 .i lenu la suzyn. klama cu lerci     ("The event of Susan coming is late") 
 .i la jan jimpe go'i   ("Zhang knows the previous.") 
 .i la suzyn. sruma lenu go'i    ("Susan assumes the previous.") 
---
 
but the middle sentence shoulda been
 
.i la jan djuno go'i
 
"djuno" for "know" rather than "jimpe" for "understand" ...
 
(though I guess either one will really do given the context)
 
Sorry for my usual sloppiness ;-)
 
-- Ben G
 
 
 
or else replacing the last of the three sentences with
 
.i ra srumo lenu go'i (using "ra" to refer to "Susan", pretty obviously in context)
 
However, I don't yet know how to mark the second utterance in this chain as hypothetical, so that the listener knows I don't really believe Zhang knows the previous, I'm just saying that Susan assumes so.  IN other words, I want to say
 
.i la jan HYP jimpe go'i   ("Zhang knows the previous.")
 
where HYP should be substituted by some appropriate cmavo that I haven't noticed in the "Lojban for Beginners" book yet....
 
Is there a cmavo like this?  What is it?  If not, what's the equivalent mechanism?
 
For a simpler example of the same issue, consider
 
"Ben does not believe Lojban is English"
 
which should be (?)
 
.i la lojban HYP mintu la glibau
.i la ben na sruma go'i
 
[the first sentence here leads to another confusion which is that lojban is a cmene, but I don't know a cmene for English -- glibau is a lujvo not a cmene...
 
I don't like
 
.i la lojban HYP mintu le glibau
 
because this is a posited equivalence between two entities of different types, it seems semantically incorrect even though it may (?) be syntactically allowable.
 
Comments, answers, etc.?
 
-- Ben Goertzel
 
 
 
 
 
 


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