From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed May 25 15:02:32 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 25 May 2005 15:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1Db3xF-0007Hu-IQ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 15:02:22 -0700 Received: from web81302.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.77]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Db3x9-0007Hm-Cb for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 25 May 2005 15:02:21 -0700 Message-ID: <20050525220308.21177.qmail@web81302.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.88.37.184] by web81302.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 25 May 2005 15:03:08 PDT Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:03:08 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: Again {lo}. To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 10050 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --- Opi Lauma wrote: > >For example to say that the dog is man's best > friend > you > >would use {lo gerku}: {lo gerku cu xagrai > pendo lo > >remna} > > OK, in this example {lo gerku} means neither > "all > dogs" nor "some dogs", it rather means "most of > dogs" > isn't? Really, we can say that "the dog is > man's best > friend" only if MOST OF DOGS are man's best > friends. > Or the same {lo gerku} can be replaced here by > "a > typical dog" without changes in meaning, I > think. So, > are "most of ..." and "a typical ..." correct > substitution for {lo}? If "Yes", can this > interpretation be used always? By the way in > English > sentence "The" has been used and in lojban > {lo}. Why? > What happens with "the <-> le", "an/a <-> lo" > correspondence? > The {le} - "the" correspondence only works in certain cases, namely, when the "the" is used to mark out a a particular know (to the speaker at least) case. English "the" gets used in a number of other ways, including (as here) to mark generality: "The whale is a mammal." Lojban {le} is used only for those known cases; for any other sumti that uses a decriptor, {lo} (or its associated {loi} or {lo'i}) is used. So, in Lojban, generality will always take {lo} (etc.). (Sorry to interject a short list of exceptions here; ignore them until later if they are confusing. There are of course generalities about particular things, so "The dogs bark all night" would get translated with {le} because they are specific, even though the claim about them is general. And there are the two explicitly general descriptors, {le'e} and {lo'e}, which may be used instead of {lo} to make general claims.) Of course, {lo} is not used just for generalities, but for all nonspecific cases. The sentence {lo gerku cu xagrai pendo le remna} could, indeed, be about a single case, loosely (that is, don't take this as a good translation, only a clearer statement) "Some dog is the best friend of some man". Lojban has no explicit mark for generality and would not have to use it if it did, any more than it has to use the tenses, which it does have. We are to tell from the context -- including our experience of people talking or writing and so what someone is likely to say -- what the speaker intends in the way of mode and tense: general or particular, present or past, actual or possible and so on.