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See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys Received: from [216.155.201.65] by n10.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Jun 2005 18:14:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by mailer2.bulk.dcn.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Jun 2005 18:14:39 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.84] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Jun 2005 18:14:39 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20050615172616.90619.qmail@web81307.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 216.155.201.63 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 84.176.114.9 From: "opi_lauma" X-Yahoo-Profile: opi_lauma MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:14:37 -0000 Subject: [lojban] Re: No default quantifiers. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-archive-position: 10178 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: opi_lauma@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list > > Hello. > > > > In the Lojban-Wiki I have found the following: > > > > "There are no default quantifiers. At all. For > > example, the default outer quantifier of "lo" > > used to be "su'o", which means "at least one", > > but that is no longer the case. "lo cribe" > could > be one, or a billion, or none." > > > > I do not understand what for the default > > quantifier {su'o} has been removed. Now if I > say > > {lo cribe cu danlu} I say nothing. Because this > > > expression is always true. If only one bear is > > animal it is true, if no bear is animal it is > > also true, if there are arbitrary number of > > bears which are animals it is also true. So, I > > get no information from {lo cribe cu danlu}, > > i. e. this sentence contains no information. > > > Well, this is one of the peculiarities of xorlo: > "Bears are animals" might be true even if there > were no bears Yes but {lo cribe cu danlu} can be true even if none bear is animal. What cannot be said about "Bears are animals" which implies not only that at leas one bear is anymal but also that all bear are animals. (it doesn't have to be true; that > depends on context, etc.) While this sometimes > corresponds with *English* intuition, it sits > rather poorly with logical ones (which would take > the claim then involved as universal conditional: > "For all x, if x is a bear then x is an animal" > or something laong that line). But, even if on > cannot always conclude that there are bears from > {lo cribe cu danlu}, it is not informationless, > since it does tell us that bears are not, for > example, ideations or events or plants and that > is sometimes useful to know too. It does not tall us that at leas one bear is animal, so we can suggest that none bear is animal and as a consequence we can even suggest that bears are events or ideations. > The point is that, for general claims, the number > of things in the set about which the claim is > made is just not relevant, "Bears are animals" or > "Bears shit in the woods" are true of bears > however many there may be (and the first at least > maybe even if there are no actual bears at all). > Can you imagine saying "The claim that bears are > animals is false because there are only 17 bears" > (or any other number than zero)? > > < cribe cu danlu} it is not important how many > bears are animals. > > I would say, if one says {lo cribe cu danlu} it > is not important whether bears are animals > (according to the new uderstanding of {lo}), > isn't?>> > > I don't follow the reasoning here. If I say that "At least one bear is animal" I say something informative, but if I say "May be some bears are animals, may be none bear is animal" (what {lo cribe cu danlu} says) it means that for me it is not important whether bears are animals. > The number of > bears is clearly unimportant for a general claim, > but whether that claim is true or not doesn't > seem insignificant, nor does {lo}, even xorlo, > make it so. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> In low income neighborhoods, 84% do not own computers. At Network for Good, help bridge the Digital Divide! http://us.click.yahoo.com/EA3HyD/3MnJAA/79vVAA/GSaulB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Yahoo! 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