From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Aug 14 09:06:54 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:06:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E4L0X-0001Co-7M for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:06:45 -0700 Received: from mole.e-mol.com ([204.11.35.13]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.52) id 1E4L0P-0001Cd-4R for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:06:45 -0700 Received: from mail.123.net (nobody@new.e-mol.com [204.11.35.18]) by mole.e-mol.com (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with SMTP id j7EG6XAl005823 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:06:34 -0400 Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:06:33 -0400 Message-Id: <200508141606.j7EG6XAl005823@mole.e-mol.com> To: lojban-list@lojban.org From: Matt Arnold Subject: [lojban] Re: lojban logo In-Reply-To: <4a4e03226c0aedadff3987ac42cf287b@xahlee.org> References: <20050813134805.50464.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> <4a4e03226c0aedadff3987ac42cf287b@xahlee.org> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: e-mol.com, e-mail online X-From: mattarn@mail.123.net X-Originating-IP: [69.246.119.219] Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 10340 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mattarn@123.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Xah, I've been a graphics professional for five years, and I work for a large advertising corporation. I've designed logos for freelance work. I've read quite a few books on logos and given it a lot of thought. However, for non-profits and non-commercial organizations I usually don't think the logo matters at all. I'm struggling to search through what you've written to extract statements of *why* the Lojban logo is bad. At one point you said: "The idea behind the lojban logo is great, but the quality, its artistic merits, is worse than nothing." Saying "the idea is great" is a good start to narrowing down your complaint. I'll consider putting together a logo based on a Venn diagram and a Cartesian coordinate system, with a more highly "produced" or "worked-on" style and color scheme, and present it to get to the bottom of what your tastes are. After all, it can't hurt to play around and it might be fun. -epkat lojban-list@lojban.org wrote: >the quality of a logo is easily ascertained by asking for assessment >any professional in the logo business. To have to state this like a >defendant is really insulting. > >the current situation, where a garbage logo is used while nobody sees >wrong with it, in fact perhaps feel great about it, is a common >phenomenon of the OpenSource situation, fill with ignorance and lies. > >Following is a message about logos i wrote a couple years ago. It >should give a indication of what is a good logo. >(again: I have no expertise in logos. However, the following is basic >about logos any person who have thought about it should know. It is >insulting, that these days one have to state and argue for the most >obvious things among the OpenSourcer ignoramuses and lies. > >for those who may be offended here because what seems to be contrary >opinion, i don't require you to be any expert or connoisseur in logos >or design, but merely for you to think just 1 hour of your life about >logo. Yes, just think about logos. Think about it in a serious way, as >if your life depends on it. Go online and look at logos. Go to library >and read about logo designs books & collections. Go outdoors and >observe logos. Think about it just for 1 hour of your whole life's >time. (as opposed to, say, graphics professionals who spend years >thinking about it, or even a college student who did happen to have >taken a course related to logo design or advertisement or philosophies >of imageries) Then, if you find what i said about the lojban logo >unreasonable or outrageous, then i'll accept it. >) > >some quick tips for good logos: > >* good logo is not something generic, even if it is beautifully >rendered. > Example of logos with this problem: > > old gnu hurd logo of just a generic sphere > ( http://www.gnu.org/graphics/hurd-logo-sm.jpg ) > > Fresco Window system of triangles ( http://fresco.org/ ) > > cvs's fish. ( http://cvshome.org/ >http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/gki/cvssmaller.gif) > > bash of simplistic font ( >http://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/~chet/bash/bashtop.html ) > > python of simplistic font ( http://python.org/ ) > >Better logos should be reminiscent to what it represents. Good >example's are SGI's computer rendered tube cube illusion, Sun Micro's >8Us that spells out Sun in 4 directions, Apple's bitten apple, Be >media company's eye-ear logo, NeXT's geometrical cube, X-Window's >sharp X, Redhat's redhat, GNU's gnu head, BSD's deamon tyke, Microsoft >Windows's window, Perl's ugly camel, nVidia's eye, GNU Hurd OS' >recursive arrows, Shell's seashell, McDonnald's M, Taco Bell's bell, >Honda's H, Yamaha's tuning forks ... > >Good logo should be distinct, an impression lock, even if it isn't >reminiscent of what it represents. For example, AT&T's death star >(globe connotation), Apache feather (Native American, panache), >Linux's penguine tux (glut & sated), General Electric's curlicue font. >Even >font alone can do very good if in distinctive style: IBM stripped >blue, Coke drink's cursives, ATI's high-tech font, ebay and google's >and yahoo's colorful fonts. > >Note that the logo of popular corporations are not necessaily good. >Examples >are: SONY, JVC, TOSHIBA, RCA, Microsoft. These are just unremarkable. > >Good logo should not be overly complex. It shouldn't be photographic >or complex drawings, in general. > >many of the above mentioned logos are collected here: >http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/freebooks.html >http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/usoft.html >http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/lambda_logo.html > >----------- > >about the loban logo: >Some logo don't have an idea behind it. Those do are usually better. >The idea behind the lojban logo is great, but the quality, its artistic >merits, is worse than nothing. > >There are really a lot of ways to arrive at a quality lojban logo. The >gist of the problem really isn't about resources. It's about people — >moron heads — in the aura of OpenSource milieu, because their grand >vision who cannot see in the first place a shit thing is installed, and >all the while wallow in the moronitude of “contribution”, “free”, >“cooperation”, “goodness”, and with a fucking attitude and aggression >about it too. > >PS This message is not directed at any individual, and i have not one >person in the lojban community in which i hold grudge. > > Xah > xah@xahlee.org >∑ http://xahlee.org/ > > >On Aug 13, 2005, at 6:48 AM, John E Clifford wrote: > >--- xah lee wrote: > >> i just want to voice this again: >> >> the lojban logo is really truly hideous. >> >> it makes lojban like a fucking joke by the >> OpenSource know-nothing >> star-trekking tech-geeking morons. >> >> I find lojban a significant scientific pursuit. >> But its logo, and now >> with the joe-blog look of the official website, >> really makes me ashamed >> to associated with it. >> >> If the lojban org cannot have a professional >> logo, please at least >> don't use a juvenile one. It is better to have >> no logo than that. >> >> Xah >> xah@xahlee.org > >Gee, I kinda like it. What specifically is wrong >with it and what would you recommend to improve >it (aside from doing without a logo altogether)? >It was the result of a contest (for which there >were not a lot of entires, admittedly) which it >won handily, so it seems to represent the best >thought and wishes of the membership at a certain >not to far past time. But it is now, so mayhap >we need a new look for a new century (or some >such sloganny line) -- though I confess that I >see other things as being more pressing. (Would a >detailed expalanaton of the logo's meaning help >make it more appealing?) > > > > ☄ > > > >To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org >with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if >you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. _______________________________________________________ Sent through e-mol. E-mail, Anywhere, Anytime. http://www.e-mol.com To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.