From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Aug 15 18:42:42 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E4qTI-0000Ky-R0 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:42:32 -0700 Received: from teddybear.perltraining.com.au ([210.23.138.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E4qTD-0000KI-MW for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:42:32 -0700 Received: from [210.23.138.170] (tabius.perltraining.com.au [210.23.138.170]) by teddybear.perltraining.com.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id D62C1A8191 for ; Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:42:23 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <4301447F.80401@perltraining.com.au> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:42:23 +1000 From: Jacinta Richardson Organization: Perl Training Australia Pty Ltd User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050331) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: tone of letter References: <243335eab8e1cd7c5daaa8da41b8421a@xahlee.org> In-Reply-To: <243335eab8e1cd7c5daaa8da41b8421a@xahlee.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.91.0.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 10381 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jarich@perltraining.com.au Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list xah lee wrote: > Power struggle is the background of the fact that rudeness is not welcomed. Regardless of power struggles, rudeness and swearing is rarely welcome. > not to be particularly against the customs of this forum, but my tone is > really irrelevant to the logo issue. To oppose me by playing antithesis > of whatever i say about the logo issue, is foolish. You're correct. Your tone *is* irrelevant to whether the logo is good or bad. You raised some very good points about the features of some ideal logos. Although you didn't give any *specific* feedback on how the Lojban logo could be improved, which was a shame as you obviously feel that you have some insight in this area. However your tone is *NOT* irrelevant with regard to communication requirements. It is never considered polite to swear or call people names even in sweeping generalisations. Let's pretend you were educated at an institution called Lord's College. You probably weren't, so feel free to substitute "Lord's College" in the below to be the name of your secondary school or university. Sent to the principal of Lord's College: i just want to voice this again: the Lord's College logo is really truly hideous. it makes Lord's College like a fucking joke by the principal and know-nothing teacher morons. I find Lord's College a significant educational institution. But its logo, and now with the joe-blog look of the official website, really makes me ashamed to associated with it. If the Lord's College org cannot have a professional logo, please at least don't use a juvenile one. It is better to have no logo than that. Taken away from the context of your opinions of Open Source, would you expect to find the above acceptable? Do you feel that the Principal of your secondary college would respond well and say "Yes, of course you're right, our logo must need work"? How about the following? the current situation, where a garbage logo is used while nobody sees wrong with it, in fact perhaps feel great about it, is a common phenomenon of the teaching profession, fill with ignorance and lies. ... about the Lord's College logo: Some logo don't have an idea behind it. Those do are usually better. The idea behind the Lord's College logo is great, but the quality, its artistic merits, is worse than nothing. There are really a lot of ways to arrive at a quality Lord's College logo. The gist of the problem really isn't about resources. It's about people — moron heads — in the aura of the teaching profession, because their grand vision who cannot see in the first place a shit thing is installed, and all the while wallow in the moronitude of “contribution”, “free”, “cooperation”, “goodness”, and with a fucking attitude and aggression about it too. PS This message is not directed at any individual, and i have not one person in the Lord's College community in which i hold grudge. It doesn't matter if *your* school would never have utilised a poor logo. Many schools allow teachers and students to provide input for their coat of arms, or logo, or website from time to time. You can be 100% correct, but if you insult, belittle and upset people you won't achieve anything. If I were the principal of this imaginary school and I got a letter or two as above I'd bin them and remind myself not to read anything else such a rude person might send me. In the open source world at least you will find a few people willing to look beyond your rudeness to see whether you do actually have a point. Only a few though, and often not the people who can make a difference to what you're complaining about. So wake up to yourself. If you're nice to people and polite in your emails you can achieve a great deal. Were you to write the following to your principal, you'd probably get a lot further than the diatribes above. Dear Principal of Lord's College, It has bothered me for some time that the Lord's College logo is not as impressive as this College deserves. I understand the ideas it is intended to represent: * A Venn diagram intersected by Cartesian coordinates representing .... * ... While I think this is an excellent idea, I feel that the current logo lets us down because it is: * .. * .. * .. I've attached a rough draft of a possible replacement logo and would like to discuss this further with you. All the very best, Xah Lee Likewise, if you had approached the Lojban community with a letter as above your point would have been taken into consideration. We'd probably think of you as some sensible, contributing person rather than having the less charitable thoughts due to you getting our hackles up. Approaching *any* kind of group with such a negative post can only engender negativity towards yourself. Welcome to the light. all the best, Jacinta -- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ | Jacinta Richardson | `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) | Perl Training Australia | (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' | +61 3 9354 6001 | _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | contact@perltraining.com.au | (il),-'' (li),' ((!.-' | www.perltraining.com.au | To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.