From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Nov 16 13:41:12 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:41:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EcV1Z-0007NI-F5 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:41:01 -0800 Received: from web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.117]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.54) id 1EcV1X-0007N7-15 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:41:01 -0800 Received: (qmail 20858 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Nov 2005 21:40:57 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=ffj2HkE/7Qg+mrSOQIUd9jRm7FoW+zW5zqbQWYy2YN4UhJ/rzQPS93f/T9X8uUrvq8qBkTBXcZTqaXMf0/cNd6T9woejNOQ8was3jVVrVTzs66NbF7++ymiIfnC0THDSHcnmws2uAAF4moCB/gsbF3rEFgppglQm0ic8670lm2k= ; Message-ID: <20051116214057.20856.qmail@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.88.34.50] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:40:57 PST Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 13:40:57 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: A ranking system for Lojban speaking proficiency? To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <20051116205055.GE23316@chain.digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-archive-position: 10793 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list 1) The "win, lose, draw" talk is inappropriate: anyone who can carry on a conversation -- however halting -- in Lojban is a winner in the Lojban view of things. 2) Are these listings to be posted? Of course, they are; why else have them except for some secret cabal with nefarious purposes? But what will be the result? Will high rankers be bombarded with conversations from those trying to improve? will low rankers be shunned?, will aproximate equals seek one another out or avoid one another? Will high rankers come to have -- even informally -- more clout in the business of the group (this is already the case, with not uniformly desirable results)? The system obviously needs some controls if it is going to be used for anything. For example, someone who always claims to better than his interlocutor, but is usually ranked less proficient by that interlocutor, may be suspected of trying to fix his ranking (but why, if nothing hangs on this?) and so can be ignored at least until his pattern changes. 3) Is proficiency transitive? There are reasons to think not -- some people just play off some better than off others. So, unless there is eventually a round robin, the relative levels need not be accurate and cannot be converted into absolutes of any sort. (And, of course, if the round robin takes place over an extended period, the earlier entries are probably not valid by the end.) 4) Can someone who is not proficient be a reasonably accurate judege of whether someone else (let alone himself) is proficient? Often things like fast response time or flashy vocabulary may cover up deepseated error patterns to the beginner -- or even intermediate. The basic skills test is probably a good filter for who should even be entered into ranking. It only makes sense to call someone proficient if they actually have the skills involved. 5) It is a fun game to play, provided no one ever takes it seriously but, onve it exists, the temptation will be to take it seriously and then it turns out not to be up to supporting many of the potential loads if might ber asked to bear. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.