From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Dec 08 18:51:47 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:51:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EkYML-0005cT-Rd for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:51:45 -0800 Received: from kcout02.prserv.net ([12.154.55.32]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1EkYMJ-0005cL-Iz for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:51:45 -0800 Received: from [10.0.0.205] (24-52-48-219.bflony.adelphia.net[24.52.48.219]) by prserv.net (kcout02) with SMTP id <2005120902514220200cc0ete> (Authid: usinet.kpreid); Fri, 9 Dec 2005 02:51:42 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [24.52.48.219] Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) In-Reply-To: <20051209012929.GD2106@chain.digitalkingdom.org> References: <20051208071730.GY25496@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <4398939A.1090806@lojban.org> <20051209012929.GD2106@chain.digitalkingdom.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1E7AC75C-B8B7-4749-ADA5-F5FBF8CC4C44@mac.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kevin Reid Subject: [lojban] A Proposed Explanation of {gunma} Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 21:51:39 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.746.2) X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 10856 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: kpreid@mac.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list The problem, as I understand it, is: what is the type of the x2 place of {gunma}? Or, what are the selbri (as opposed to LAhEs) used for interconverting masses, sets, and individuals? I have thought that the most sensible explanation is that the x2 of {gunma} is a set. Today, a discussion with Robin Lee Powell and John Cowan on #lojban resulted in the following complete list of conversions, which we agree is sufficient and consistent: x1 kind x2 kind relation gunma mass set x2 is the set of all the parts of x1 cmima individual set x1 is a member of x2 pagbu individual mass x1 is a part of x2 selgunma set mass se gunma selcmi set individual se cmima selpau mass individual se pagbu The other simple explanation of {gunma}, that the x2 is all of the members as individuals, is incompatible with predicate logic. Some notes, if the above is true: {cmima} and {pagbu} may of course be used to specify an *in*complete list of multiple members/parts, using {.e}. The x2 of {gunma} is indeed "complete", in the sense that in a bridi which specifies a value for it, that value must refer to some set which contains exactly all of the members. To completely list the members of a set, use {ce'o} or {lu'i}. To completely list the members of a mass, use {joi} or {lu'i}, or some form of set description together with {gunma}. The "individuals" which are parts of masses may be themselves masses, of course. -- Kevin Reid To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.