From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Dec 13 21:01:35 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:01:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EmOkd-0000zA-Ug for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:00:30 -0800 Received: from [69.55.226.239] (helo=transfinite.hypercomplex.net) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1EmOkE-0000yA-Fy for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 21:00:20 -0800 X-Greylist: delayed 1225 seconds by postgrey-1.21 at transfinite.hypercomplex.net; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:56:36 PST Received: from zproxy.gmail.com (zproxy.gmail.com [64.233.162.202]) by transfinite.hypercomplex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356191316076 for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:56:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id z31so16788nzd for ; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:54:35 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Fkv9jXmNsnUbQJS721uHMT0fRFAhQUa5uVufPlIW252j9nHFghNwaDric1e9iOS9IyCZL7L63qywld7TkJkuHWuLbyyrmgX9tIIJRz/h5lp4F9DjoVhVzfZw0SY1biffZZVCF8B903UIE2YO72lfLDApMpZZAOw1mef/pmNnV8Y= Received: by 10.65.116.16 with SMTP id t16mr46767qbm; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.65.105.20 with HTTP; Tue, 13 Dec 2005 19:28:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:28:01 -0500 From: Matt Arnold To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: "point"? In-Reply-To: <20051214003626.GS3329@chain.digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20051201201215.GT18294@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <20051203071906.GO9262@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <925d17560512030754r3955ea9fqacb4fdf7e3cdc821@mail.gmail.com> <20051205191156.GB9161@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <925d17560512051817k91aaaf0mbe52a7cb6566aa7d@mail.gmail.com> <20051214003626.GS3329@chain.digitalkingdom.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-archive-position: 10877 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 12/13/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > I'd rather throw my hands up in the air and say "We can't use Lojban > to talk about computers ever, sorry." than use "vorme" for "web > link". > > That *may* be a slight exagerration, but it doesn't feel so right > now. > > -Robin That is a definite difference in philosophy. Supposedly one of the uses for Lojban is as an experiment on the human mind, to see how it evolves when people who are not experts in linguistics and logic actually start using it on a casual basis and have to live with it. When that happens, how will it depart from the rigidly standardized baseline of the experts? Well, this goal is happening now, and there are some quarters in which the fulfillment of this purpose is not welcomed. {vorme} to mean "web link" feels right to the non-expert. It's a spandrel. It's the sloppy stop-gap measure so typical of natural evolution. It's Lojban slang. It's out of the control of the grammarians who know better. Conflicts like this arise when experts feel that the language isn't ready for the transition yet; that it hasn't had a chance to be thoroughly canonized. "Wait a second," they say. "The plan was that Lojban would only be spoken by the sort of pedant who used to correct your grammar in grade school all the time. Then and only then would Moses' tablets be brought down to the casual user who would skew it all over the place, because at least that way we'd be able to know they were violating the canon. Are we going to skip that stage?" they wonder. In this way Lojban is like a kite which is in glorious flight before its maker has got it tied to the frame really tightly and some of its streamers are on crooked. -epkat To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.