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Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 16:45:22 -0300
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Subject: [lojban] Re: A Proposed Explanation of {gunma}
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On 12/15/05, John E Clifford <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> It should be noted -- pragmatically again -- that
> in contexts where the distributivity/collectivity
> is at issue, {lo} becomes the marker for
> distributivity just by not being {loi}.

Not any more that it becomes the marker for non-distributivity
just by not being {ro}.

In contexts where distributivity is at issue, {lo} can go either
way, and if context is not sufficient to disambiguate, the
speaker has simply failed to provide enough information.

>  On the other hand, the gadri
> and quantifier methods of indicating predication
> are technically inadequate since they do not say
> what kind of predication is involved in the
> description itself: "Those who (together)
> surround the building are red-haired" might need
> to be distinguished from "Those who (each)
> surround the bulding are very long walls" for
> example.

Right, when you need such precision, the price is more
wordiness. For example:

  ro da poi lu'o ke'a sruri le dinju cu xunre kerfa

  ro sruri be le dinju cu clani bitmu

{lo ro sruri be le dinju cu xunre kerfa} is perfectly understandable,
but does not include any distribution information explicitly.

> The gadri indiciation also complicates
> collapsing cases of two kinds of predication with
> a common core: "The wall (by itself) and the
> students (together) surround the bulding"

That one is not hard:

  le bitmu .e loi tadni cu sruri le dinju

{.e} is distributive, and {loi} is not.

> and as
> above "John and Mary (separately) picked up tools
> and (together) started to build a house."

Right, this one requires splitting into two sentences.

> {pagbu} will not always work for "part" if
> transitivity is maintained, since I am a part of
> society and my liver is a part of me, but my
> liver is not a part of society.

I suspect that might be because of the ambiguity of "I/me",
in one case referring to my person and in the other to my
body: My person is part of society and my liver is part of
my body, but I would not say that my body is part of
society or that my liver is part of my person.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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