From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Dec 19 19:01:16 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:01:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1EoXkH-0002Gh-PZ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:00:57 -0800 Received: from mx3.mail.ru ([194.67.23.149]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1EoXkE-0002Ga-Sb for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:00:57 -0800 Received: from [212.17.3.19] (port=26768 helo=yanis.vpn.plhs) by mx3.mail.ru with esmtp id 1EoXkD-000Dm2-00 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 20 Dec 2005 06:00:53 +0300 Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:00:49 +0600 From: Yanis Batura X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.5.30) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <702295712.20051220090049@mail.ru> To: Michael van der Gulik Subject: [lojban] Re: Chess-and-Tetris Hypothesis In-Reply-To: <43A7B9A0.60201@gulik.co.nz> References: <847037620.20051217094424@mail.ru> <43A7B9A0.60201@gulik.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------C8697910EB2A71" X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-archive-position: 10936 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: ybatura@mail.ru Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ------------C8697910EB2A71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 20.12.2005, 13:58, Michael van der Gulik wrote: > I don't agree. > The human brain is a neural network, and as such, it is particularly > good at recognising patterns. Over time, patterns are easier to work > with as the neurons do their magic. When learning or speaking a > language, our brains are constantly on the lookout for patterns. > One thing I discovered when I learned Dutch is that it isn't the actual > words that I needed to remember, but the phrases they're used in. My > brain can piece together phrases much easier (being at a higher level of > abstraction) than words. > As Lojban is learned, we'll also pick out the phrases used such as > "...goi ko'a... ko'a cu..." This phrase is fairly recognisable by my > standards and is no worse than any other form of back-reference (such as > the previous "this" in this sentence) in natural languages. As a > Lojbanic beginner, I find the "...goi ko'a..." construct invaluable. What you wrote only corroborates my hypotheses :) For natural-type languages, human brain indeed associates words and phrases with complex patterns. "Implicit"/context dependent style of natural-type grammars allows easy combining and linking these patterns when "translating" human thoughts into spoken form. And that, of course, is "tetris". In Lojban though, what you call "pattern" might only be place structures of gismu. If you speak only 0- or 1-level phrases (I mean nesting levels), that, of course, is a task for human brain. But at the very moment you try to say something new, more complex [deeper nested] and non-trivial, Lojban grammar will compel you to: 1) remember the structure of levels 2) carefully think how to sustain disambiguity using various terminators (that will be no problem if you always use them ku kei ku vau), otherwise you will be wrong. And being wrong is forgivable for the natural-type languages (since they rely on context much more than Lojban, and besides, they are more redundant), but not for Lojban. This is certainly not applied to the case when you use a set of 500 fixed sentences learnt by heart ("Everyday Lojban"). mi'e .ianis. ------------C8697910EB2A71 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 20.12.2005, 13:58, Michael van der Gulik wrote:

> I don't agree.

> The human brain is a neural network, and as such, it is particularly

> good at recognising patterns. Over time, patterns are easier to work

> with as the neurons do their magic. When learning or speaking a

> language, our brains are constantly on the lookout for patterns.

> One thing I discovered when I learned Dutch is that it isn't the actual

> words that I needed to remember, but the phrases they're used in. My

> brain can piece together phrases much easier (being at a higher level of

> abstraction) than words.

> As Lojban is learned, we'll also pick out the phrases used such as

> "...goi ko'a... ko'a cu..." This phrase is fairly recognisable by my

> standards and is no worse than any other form of back-reference (such as

> the previous "this" in this sentence) in natural languages. As a

> Lojbanic beginner, I find the "...goi ko'a..." construct invaluable.

What you wrote only corroborates my hypotheses :)

For natural-type languages, human brain indeed associates words and phrases with complex patterns. "Implicit"/context dependent style of natural-type grammars allows easy combining and linking these patterns when "translating" human thoughts into spoken form. And that, of course, is "tetris".

In Lojban though, what you call "pattern" might only be place structures of gismu. If you speak only 0- or 1-level phrases (I mean nesting levels), that, of course, is a task for human brain. But at the very moment you try to say something new, more complex [deeper nested] and non-trivial, Lojban grammar will compel you to:

1) remember the structure of levels

2) carefully think how to sustain disambiguity using various terminators (that will be no problem if you always use them ku kei ku vau),

otherwise you will be wrong. And being wrong is forgivable for the natural-type languages (since they rely on context much more than Lojban, and besides, they are more redundant), but not for Lojban.

This is certainly not applied to the case when you use a set of 500 fixed sentences learnt by heart ("Everyday Lojban").

mi'e .ianis.

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