From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Mar 16 09:46:43 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:46:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FJwYH-0006ZO-6S for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:46:21 -0800 Received: from web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.124]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FJwYF-0006ZG-2f for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:46:21 -0800 Received: (qmail 11624 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Mar 2006 17:46:17 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=envKACCddpjKV+L9AZ153KrvxCY28/hHTqL6yER+tRtTgSTy1+i02qsUr0inB6yx9XEbngnTaaZBI8PZrT3iO4c5lruLGOdiivHQqUst1bY0jdq+CLQqL0ELK0OOYPo/bayCF2oLa9CbcDOdVbT1o+CwhkwSXPVLKmB4y3XWKIc= ; Message-ID: <20060316174617.11622.qmail@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [70.230.183.14] by web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:46:17 PST Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 09:46:17 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: organization of Lojban material To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-archive-position: 11155 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Some of the toepics that are coming up as I prepare my paper on semantic primes for the Constructed Languages Conference, seem relevant to questions about organizing material for teaching/learning. Semantic primes per se are not the first things one learns as a child, nor are they the things out of which one builds one's other notions; they could be but the idea of a prime does not depend on that. Nor the defining devices using primes necessarily foundational. There is, however a closely related cluster of notions which do seem to be relevant to teaching/learning a second language as an adult. These constitute the idea of a minimal language within the context of a larger one (or not -- there minimal languages which are not intended to get bigger). The ideal minimal language has a small vocabulary, a very simple grmmar (a handful of lines in EBNF, say) and yet is capable of being used to talk about almost anything: not very precisely perhaps and long-windedly maybe but at least getting nto the conversation -- and asking how to get the more precise words if the need arises. Let's assume that the first lesson is: the alphabet and how it sounds, how to form names in Lojban given those in your native tongue, and how to use names in conversation (introducing, addressing), and the fundamental words of polite intercourse ("Hello," "Goodbye," "My name is...," "What's yours?" and maybe "I have more to say," "I'm done now" and "May I interrupt here"). the next thing is to have something to say in the conversation. There are, of course, the cliche's and, as a start for further explanations at least, these probably cannot be dispensed with. But right away, starting from these, the basic sentence pattern (under all the fuss, there really is only one in Lojban) can be introduced and explained. And it can be filled out immediately with some of that minimal list words, pronouns and basic predicates (leaving "basic" undefined and given by a list, perhaps). This may mean that the first Lojban one learns or creates is only a little advanced from Dick and Jane (but some: no observatives and no imperatives), rather than the Bible and LaoZi, with which we all started. Maybe a good as Dr. Suess by the third or fourth lesson. But at the end of a few lessons -- say five -- the student could carry on a conversation at a very low level about just about anything and would have internalized a vocabulary in terms of which the rest could be explained and the basic sentence structure, around which the rest could be developed. Indeed, most of the developments are foreshadowed in the minimal approach and come as a welcome relief from some of its wanderings (Moving from "I believe this: The sky is blue" to "I believe that the sky is blue" or "Something bit me. It was a dog" to " to "A dog bit me" for examples). Another possibly useful feature of minimal languages is that they provide a schema for explaining meanings of words. Minimal English (or whatever) can thus be used to lay out the particularities of a Lojban predicate, say, both in itself and how it relates to various English glosses. We do this eventually in some way or other, but this would provide a uniform pattern (and progressive, using earlier bits in later ones) and perhaps one that would regularly be a part of a lesson. If any of this makes any sense to people inclined to write or revise or ... a textbook for Lojban, I will be happy to discuss details and lend advice along the way. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.