From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Mar 27 05:28:56 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 27 Mar 2006 05:29:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FNrlg-0007vx-J8 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 05:28:25 -0800 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.228]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FNrlf-0007vp-AB for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 05:28:24 -0800 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so1401245wri for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 05:28:22 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JolHOfn1HyFTwkt1dJ/K+Vn8enlC9wvjVkLwpPsAF2uJjKRagOEZ4GE6z6fCnIzsWevqp3NMzq1ONiDWjvRu7Ee5TlEcnL4ncIqGv9KJIQ9e/KWOpYmEW7BIr7pJvoFBYIObRn8j55SsvT1PN1DsMU2o5pXpLim24t5dha4VgGk= Received: by 10.54.120.19 with SMTP id s19mr2868456wrc; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 05:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.126.13 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Mar 2006 05:21:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560603270521n425653f4u8de39e9b4497e671@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2006 10:21:08 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: semantic primes can define anything In-Reply-To: <20060326221929.45639.qmail@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560603260755l6f9f865dg15ba241eb023da41@mail.gmail.com> <20060326221929.45639.qmail@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-archive-position: 11254 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 3/26/06, John E Clifford wrote: > --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > > > The essential thing in this context was that > > the > > prime FEEL does not have a Lojban equivalent, > > that > > Lojban splits this prime in two: {cinmo} and > > {ganse}. > > Well, neither of them fits very well: {cinmo} is > explicitly about emotions, with the rpoblems > noted; {ganse} wants a stimulus. How does one > say "I feel (something) bad"? "I feel bad" could be {mi cortu} or {mi dunku}, but we'd need more context. There is no general "feel" in Lojban that covers both emotions and sensations. > > Other primes that Lojban seems to split are for > > example THINK into {pensi} and {jinvi}, > > this seems to be clearly {jinvi} "think > something about something," there is some > discussion of a need to divide it into "think > something" and "think about." Incidentally, why > does Lojban have two words here? At least the paraphrase for "loves" seems to use both: X often thinks about Y X thinks good things about Y X so'i roi pensi Y X jinvi lo zabna Y The first one does not say that X often has opinions about Y, but that Y is often on X's mind. > HAPPEN > > into {fasnu} and {se lifri} > > Mainly {se lifri} the line seems laways to be > "Something happens to something." So the sense of {fasnu} would not be prime? > and probably KNOW > > into > > {djuno} and {se slabu}. > > I can't find a {se slabu} case, but I have a list > of only a couple dozen cases. Right, it's hard to be sure from just the keyword. Presumably this has been worked out since this is not a particularly Lojbanic distinction. > Not to mention the very > > problematic HAVE. > > It seems to be the minimal "alienable use" sense > (which Lojban doesn't do to well), but I can't > find an example of it. Well, either Lojban doesn't do it well or Lojban doesn't do it just like English. If the English way is truly prime and universal, then Lojban doesn't do it well. > > I don't know what the Spanish prime > > corresponding > > to YOU is either. There are four candidates: > > "tú", "usted", "ustedes" and "vosotros", and > > it's hard > > to say that there are no conceptual differences > > among > > them. > > I think it has to be "usted," but again, I don't > have a case. I would have said "tú" if I was forced to pick one, but I have no idea how one decides which one is a prime and which one isn't. > > So the primes seem to fit English very well but > > other languages not so well. > > Well, it fits English well in the sense that > there are English expressions that do (sometimes) > mean what is intended here (but it presumably > fits Spanish in that way two, else some of these > "primes" would clearly not be primes). The > problem is that all the English expressions are > polysemous and it is hard to pick out the right > one and be sure to use only it. So part of the problem is that they don't manage to explain their primes very well. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.