From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Apr 28 06:07:33 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 28 Apr 2006 06:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FZSgi-0002kt-EJ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 28 Apr 2006 06:07:12 -0700 Received: from web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.123]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1FZSgh-0002kl-29 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 28 Apr 2006 06:07:12 -0700 Received: (qmail 42168 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Apr 2006 13:07:09 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=tp37AmhmuHQnfEDHAh9iPd8tcFmEaGMXc55/fDOIEXAbZYWU/KxNuecbn1XkGHpN+7dOIY97b1GAbOiOnt9NRqw6YelJhC8t6QbI0gRuPkcV7Dppuf7pP4/hDMwVw0GYhxDu3qxf0xbD5eZENfwpmQLxAoZOx+3kYY70aJ6e6FE= ; Message-ID: <20060428130709.42166.qmail@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [70.230.186.84] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 28 Apr 2006 06:07:09 PDT Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 06:07:09 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: mi'o pensi'u To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <925d17560604280538t15446195h83a86d666fd75313@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-archive-position: 11353 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Amen! The frequent use of sets in Lojban (from Loglan) is a product of an earlier time in Logic, when there seemed no other way of dealing with plurality. While they were, in fact, already available, bunches (however realized) came to general awareness for logicians -- and eventually Lojbanists -- only relatively recently. Unlike sets, bunches are transparent to the properties -- and individuality -- of their members. Barring a few mathematical cases, "set" ought to be read as "bunch" (or some equivalent notion, e.g., "plurality") everywhere in Lojban material. The discussion around these topics (including gadri, for example) needs to be revised accordingly (and, in a few cases, the whole notion of the meaning of a word so that it involved 'sets' or plurals essentially needs to be rewritten). Given Lojban's penchant for misusing words, it is probably enough to simply misuse "set" to mean "bunch," as many of us have been doing in effect for some time now. --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 4/28/06, Yanis Batura > wrote: > > > > simxu means "x1 (set) has members who > mutually/reciprocally x2" > > Personally, I never use a set for the x1 of > {simxu}. I take {simxu} > to mean instead: "x1 (plural) > mutually/reciprocally do x2". > > Mixing sets with normal stuff is extremely > cumbersome, and doesn't > really get you anything, so I don't use sets. > For example, if you do use > sets for the x1 of simxu and you wanted to say > "we will meet each > other and then go for a beer", you would have > to split it into two > separate bridi because sets wouldn't go for a > beer. > > > My question is, can {mi'o} be used in a place > of set? > > I don't think so. But then, I don't think any > place should be > reserved for (logical) sets. > > > What is it indentical to, {mi .e do}, {mi joi > do} or {mi ce do}? > > I would say {mi jo'u do}, which is non-commital > for distributivity. > It can be used both distributively and > non-distributively. When > context doesn't provide the needed precision, > one can use the > more wordy and precise forms. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to > lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to > http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to > secretary@lojban.org for help. > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.