From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri May 05 07:46:53 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 05 May 2006 07:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fc1Zf-0001h5-DT for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 05 May 2006 07:46:31 -0700 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.225]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fc1Zc-0001gw-9O for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 05 May 2006 07:46:31 -0700 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i13so619143wra for ; Fri, 05 May 2006 07:46:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=QeMjgE6P3TpBXKbHmoDYXqFeoGoAYxK9YCauCI5rworFc5zeS4yYZ0aGefWGgnv1VKmurDu+St6F38sMQvJ+CkwPRapGIRZft279dSLq/XDnDe8eBLN8SWVlHxqMtHDWb4qghtJ3Id1GjJVC9KW33HOnMDVWLcomxcog6ndOres= Received: by 10.54.107.4 with SMTP id f4mr1216749wrc; Fri, 05 May 2006 07:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.126.18 with HTTP; Fri, 5 May 2006 07:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560605050746k9075a41wec53b8772a6b3cb8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 11:46:25 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: ralju bangu be le gligu'e In-Reply-To: <20060505133538.23010.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605050541l58711902vfc138e56ca6a15fa@mail.gmail.com> <20060505133538.23010.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11390 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 5/5/06, John E Clifford wrote: > --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > > They seem > > independent > > to me. In a tanru like {broda be ko'a brode}, > > the tanru formation > > operation (2) clearly uses a selbri that > > already incorporated an > > argument as the modifier selbri, so in that > > case (2) uses (1) > > in its construction. > > Well, that assumes that this has the structure > /x(Fx * Ga) rather than /x/y(Fx * Gy)a and I > don't see that as obviously the case. It has neither of those structures. {broda be ko'a brode} is a selbri with the same number of arguments as {brode} itself, which neither of your options provides. > Since {broda co brode} is just the same as {brode > broda} Sort of the same. They have different argument structure. > and you think that is clear and OK, When did I say that {brode broda} is clear and OK? > how > can the former be a mismatch (are you attributing > some logical significance to linear order all > by itself)? {broda co brode} behaves in form like an ordinary selbri, but its argument structure is very different from that of ordinary selbri. The sumti that appear in front of it fill the argument slots of {broda} whereas the sumti that appear after it fill the argument slots of {brode}, starting with the second. This is a mismatch with respect to the ordinary interpretation of {term term term selbri term term term} in which the position of the selbri (once you get past the first term) is irrelevant. > Actually, since your reading of > {ranju bangu} is more naturally {bangu ralju}, Huh? > the instant case is really {ralju co bangu be le > gligu'e}, but I think the uncertaintly remains. {lo ralju be lo bangu be lo gliselgu'e} would make the intended meaning more clear, but that's a different issue. The meaning of {broda brode be ko'a} is by definition {broda (brode be ko'a)}, with no mismatches between form and meaning. The selbri {broda} modifies the selbri {brode be ko'a} resulting in a new selbri with the same argument slots as the tertau, {brode be ko'a}. That's what the grammatical form says and that's what the meaning matches. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.