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( [203.191.164.14]) by mx.gmail.com with ESMTP id g3sm4394261wra.2006.05.10.21.40.32; Wed, 10 May 2006 21:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4462BFDD.8050204@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 14:38:53 +1000 From: Paul Vigo User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (Windows/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Everyday Lojban References: <20060508152918.17862.qmail@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <366115241.20060509075751@mail.ru> <446039DA.40909@gmail.com> <4460B11A.6000300@lojban.org> <4461AE88.8080205@gmail.com> <44624EEA.4000606@lojban.org> <9710079907.20060511082621@mail.ru> In-Reply-To: <9710079907.20060511082621@mail.ru> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11480 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: paulvigo@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Yanis Batura wrote: > On 11.05.2006, 3:36, Bob LeChevalier wrote: > > 1. Matt Arnold has once suggested to translate "The Prophet" in the > wiki. While this idea was fine, the style of the book itself, as > someone has put it in jboselkei, was "exhausting", and I hardly > believe any newbies will ever be reading it in Lojban. > > 2. However, several hard nuts (I mean difficult sentences) from the > "Prophet"'s text got to jboselkei and were successfully translated. > Very impressed with The Prophet. I would have thought it one of the most difficult (subtle) works to translate into any language. The way it is written is so deceptively simple that it is easy to overlook how dense the imagery is. > 3. There are many posts in jboselkei that due to the presence of > American slang and specific local humor, which is obscure to other > people, are very difficult to translate. > Idioms, jargon and slang will always be difficult to translate. This doesn't mean they shouldn't be included in a text (especially a beginner text) in the interests of brevity. It might be worth using the three column format (discussed below) for such a text. > Taking all this and Mr. LeChevalier's information into account, I > ga'inai suggest to combine the power of the wiki with the community > approach used in jboselkei for creation of a reader for beginners > (Alex Martini's idea, by the way): > > > "EVERYDAY LOJBAN" > > 1. A set of everyday dialogues in English and Lojban > > 2. English and Lojban in these must be very simple, to not scare away > Lojban newbies or non-native English speakers. > > 3. The form of dialogues will be like in "The Prophet": tables with > two columns, one for English, one for Lojban translation. > > Example: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Prophet%3A+The+Coming+of+the+Ship&bl > > > 4. It will be being created on wiki pages. > > 5. Difficult-to-translate sentences will be posted in jboselkei. > One of the difficulties in composing truly basic english is that, without the many shortcuts of a natural language, is that it can become overloaded with long winded semantic elaboration. Natural languages are usually idiomatic and subtle enough to avoid this through slang and other shortcuts. The alternative is to reduce the complexity of the text to the "Spot can run. Jane can jump." level of complexity. A method of translation I have seen used in many ancient texts works well for this. A three column form is chosen and the translation is less concerned with exactly translating the jargon of the source and destination languages. Jargon, idioms and translation issues from both the source and destination languages are discussed in the third column. This way the lojban translation could make use of fu'ivla for english slang, hugely simplifying the demands on the novice reader, and at the same time explaining how this borrowing has come about. The third column also allows the translators to explain any subtleties of lojban vs english, or introduce unusual words or novel concepts. I like this "everyday lojban" idea a lot. mi'e .pav. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.