From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu May 11 19:06:57 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 11 May 2006 19:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FeN39-0000oY-Q4 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 11 May 2006 19:06:39 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.192]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FeN37-0000oQ-2O for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 11 May 2006 19:06:39 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id n29so312789nzf for ; Thu, 11 May 2006 19:06:36 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tNqcKLk25DVQVu/XWoToD5BRzejqaQb/2+QYIqBGFwTcAh83nZ4BpVG0wt8MnR4G9TsTgvTxnTHUnzRd/HaE4NDaRTNxbJv4fhwqg8Wdv9Hz7FyhElztwaek7gTjRlbucEIeMySurwlWYVFZ3jpJs7aqsmH6thpkJoz4X1gXZJE= Received: by 10.36.252.69 with SMTP id z69mr1774981nzh; Thu, 11 May 2006 19:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.153.14 with HTTP; Thu, 11 May 2006 19:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 20:06:35 -0600 From: "Maxim Katcharov" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Usage of lo and le In-Reply-To: <925d17560605111827s5c1ee336u524d2a08555bd739@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605101754ibf2c8k435cb516bfee8b32@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605101920o84917e4t99c4dc0b2b9d9b6c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605110956u4dd0b662xffdce093966219b6@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605111709w1198a046n52838e84ee0fcc1c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605111827s5c1ee336u524d2a08555bd739@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11504 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 5/11/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 5/11/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > > > You're responding to the only two comments made by me that don't focus > > on my point - that is, you've skimmed over my point entirely. The > > paragraph starting with "Not by your rules. Here..." outlines my > > point, and I would appreciate a response to it, as I think that it > > shows clearly that there is something amiss with the current usage of > > {ro}. > > I think I gave my response more than once. {lo ro cribe} refers to all bears. > Nothing that can relevantly be said to be a bear is left out by it. I > don't know > how else to explain it, but obviously I'm not making myself understood by > you since what you call my rules are not my rules. We're sitting in a room filled with bears, which is in a zoo filled with bears, in a forest filled with bears - whatever. We've been talking about the bears in the zoo for the past hour - their past, their future, bears that we may own, whatever. Suddenly, I want to talk about "all bears that have ever existed": {e'u mi'o casnu lo ro cribe poi pu ja ca zasti} This suggests that, of the "bears that can be relevantly said to be bears" (the ones in the zoo only, for some reason), I want to talk about the ones that do exist or have existed. How do I express my "all bears", that is, "all bears that have, will, currently exist, in the imagination, hypothetically, or otherwise", that is "X such that are bears". > > I will respond to the paragraph you indicate, but I will be repeating > myself: > > > > > How would you say "let's talk about all bears that have ever existed"? > > > > > > e'u mi'o casnu lo ro cribe poi pu ja ca zasti > > > > Not by your rules. > > Yes, that's how I would say it. > > > Here you are inviting me to talk, out of the bears > > that are in context, of the ones that have existed and exist. > > Not the bears that are in context. All the things that can be relevantly > said to be a bear. What's the difference between those "in context", and those "relevantly said to be"? > There is an important difference there. Most things > that can be relevantly said to be bears, in most contexts, will not be > in the context. > > > This is > > clearly inconsistent. When does {__ ro} refer to all bears? > > When does "all bears" refer to all bears? Always. > The [lo ro cribe] in your example: > xu do pu viska [lo ro cribe] ca lo nu do vitke le dalpanka > Did you see all bears when you visited the zoo? does not, by your ensuing description, refer to "all bears", it refers to all bears at the zoo. I guess it's referring to "relevant bears", the idea being that "all bears" (ever, hypothetical,...) aren't relevant. > > When > > someone includes the word zasti after a poi? When all bears in context > > clearly already exist? "Aha, clearly he's not talking about all bears > > already in context, because I thought that they all exist... wait, was > > he talking about more than existing bears then"? > > No, {lo ro cribe} is always "all bears", i.e. all the things that can relevantly > be said to be bears. > > > And what if all bears > > in context don't exist now-before, and I want to suggest talking of > > the ones that do? > > How can they not exist and yet exist? My above bear-zoo example does a better job of saying what you just responded to. > > > Do the rules of Lojban change based on the context > > (all bears in context meet restrictions = new context, if they don't = > > modification of current context)? > > Not sure what you mean by that. The universe of discourse is not > something fixed once and for all discourses, nor is it fixed once and > for all in a given discourse either. By its very definition it is molded > by the discourse itself as it evolves. 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