From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri May 12 14:03:12 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 12 May 2006 14:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Feemb-0002EE-OH for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 12 May 2006 14:02:46 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.200]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FeemU-0002E6-P2 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 12 May 2006 14:02:43 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id n29so491203nzf for ; Fri, 12 May 2006 14:02:37 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MDoqOkihC3M6kPZRz+mKJQgOtDfnPUQ4xbFT4N+QXnsVLoM/EUeOEDMhX4l2yft4EGL1uMdnoVsrz3JVCmuwLA3llzfsmrowkRMgbNs7u+GPg7p+/ctFAYWwzbdrvZoZAmKCS4eI4+fbkSiYipJQfdiCIXgSURrO20+7MaK/vz0= Received: by 10.36.227.9 with SMTP id z9mr232561nzg; Fri, 12 May 2006 14:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.153.14 with HTTP; Fri, 12 May 2006 14:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 15:02:37 -0600 From: "Maxim Katcharov" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Usage of lo and le In-Reply-To: <925d17560605120641y12e1cfb7ydb80fad3d465bb1a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605101920o84917e4t99c4dc0b2b9d9b6c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605110956u4dd0b662xffdce093966219b6@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605111709w1198a046n52838e84ee0fcc1c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605111827s5c1ee336u524d2a08555bd739@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605120641y12e1cfb7ydb80fad3d465bb1a@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11520 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 5/12/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 5/11/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > > > We're sitting in a room filled with bears, which is in a zoo filled > > with bears, in a forest filled with bears - whatever. We've been > > talking about the bears in the zoo for the past hour - their past, > > their future, bears that we may own, whatever. Suddenly, I want to > > talk about "all bears that have ever existed": > > > > {e'u mi'o casnu lo ro cribe poi pu ja ca zasti} > > > > This suggests that, of the "bears that can be relevantly said to be > > bears" (the ones in the zoo only, for some reason), I want to talk > > about the ones that do exist or have existed. How do I express my "all > > bears", that is, "all bears that have, will, currently exist, in the > > imagination, hypothetically, or otherwise", that is "X such that are > > bears". > > For example: > > lo ro cribe poi zasti ja xanri gi'e nenri ja bartu le dalpanka > Ok, for the last 5 days we've been talking about the bears in the forest. How do I know that you aren't inviting me to speak of the relevant bears there? They are, of course, much more relevant than all the bears in the universe, ever. In your strategy, you basically have to say something that doesn't make sense in the current context (and therefore you're talking about a new one). If by my strategy you wanted to "move between contexts, disregarding all context that currently exists": {__ ro cribe} {__ ro cribe poi nenri [this zoo]} {__ ro cribe poi nenri [this forest]} {__ ro cribe poi mi'o ponse} {__ ro cribe poi ...} I'll repeat and clarify from another response I made: You state that {__ ro cribe poi [in that cage]} refers to the bears that are in context/"are relevantly seen as bears". What if the relevant bears that we've been talking about for the last hour are some specific 20 bears, 2 of which are in the cage? (You strongly suspect that there are more than these 2 bears in the cage.) This would say "all of the (those 20 relevant) bears that are in the cage (there are 2)" - but it doesn't say what I want to say - all of the bears in the cage, whatever number there is in there, context aside. > Or translate even more of your English paragraph. You can do it > in Lojban in the same or a similar way that you are doing it in English. > It's not something that comes up very often, so in my opinion it is not > a good idea to waste a short expresion for it. > But it is used a lot. You just use a hack (saying something that would be unintelligible within the current context) in order to express it. > > What's the difference between those "in context", and those > > "relevantly said to be"? > > >From dictionary.com: > > con·text > 1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word > or passage and determines its meaning. > 2. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting. > > " 'All bears' in context " uses sense 1 of "context". > "All bears in context" uses sense 2 of "context". I disagree. Both of those use sense 1. Words like "nau", "mi", "ti", [...] are used to express the second sense. The first is used to disambiguate, the second is used to place things relative to it in time and space. If you disagree, then perhaps an example that demonstrates the difference that you see between " 'all bears' in context" and "all bears in context"? To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.