From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri May 12 17:59:07 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 12 May 2006 17:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FeiT3-0007pT-8B for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 12 May 2006 17:58:49 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.197]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FeiT0-0007pL-W6 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 12 May 2006 17:58:49 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id n29so520153nzf for ; Fri, 12 May 2006 17:58:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=EggKoZG5+ew/svsFAVEm+uyRtn/T/PluXePhMOcU+67wzQLVf2D9yQhBDu6MIbmneW+xGeH2co0gT3PFCjrZdEwwttJGfNI7uPoqKmyDMCzNQFTvgmdMJfytBQaUpZjo+Mjl8hrtIgxz5V9EB5G9W9yzinGWk9eGNJgdKeCVF40= Received: by 10.36.48.18 with SMTP id v18mr503110nzv; Fri, 12 May 2006 17:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.153.14 with HTTP; Fri, 12 May 2006 17:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 18:58:45 -0600 From: "Maxim Katcharov" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Usage of lo and le In-Reply-To: <925d17560605121743p2fec3c21o6296fb8db5fdb87e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605111827s5c1ee336u524d2a08555bd739@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605120641y12e1cfb7ydb80fad3d465bb1a@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605121557l1341cd6dn57fab88b8c956e80@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605121704y72a68ee6u9cd709c3cc8b1409@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605121743p2fec3c21o6296fb8db5fdb87e@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11528 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 5/12/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 5/12/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > > > What if the relevant bears that we've been talking about for the last > > hour are some specific 20 bears, 2 of which are in the cage? (You > > strongly suspect that there are more than these 2 bears in the cage.) > > If you strongly suspect that there are more than these 2 bears in the > cage, then {ro} would definitely include them. What use is this at all to the listener? I mean, if the listener didn't matter, we wouldn't even have an inner quantifier, nor restrictions (even cribe). We'd just say "did you see thing(s) at the thing(s)?". The reason we're using {ro}, restrictions ({poi}) and whatnot is so that the listener can know what our referant is. How is the listener going to know that you're talking about all (ever) bears now in the cage, and not all in-context/relevant bears now in the cage? > > > {__ ro cribe poi nenri le va selri'u} would say "all of the (those 20 > > relevant) bears that are in the cage (there are 2)" - but it doesn't > > say what I want to say - all of the bears in the cage, whatever number > > there is in there, context aside. > > No, it wouldn't say that. It would refer to anything that could relevantly > be said to be a bear in the cage, and any other bear in the cage besides > the ones we've been talking about before can certainly be relevantly said > to be a bear in the cage from what you are saying. We havn't been talking about those bears before. This is the whole point. > > > The utility of my inner {ro} would be that the listener wouldn't need > > to consider context (like those 20 relevant bears), nor be confused by > > it where it works against what the speaker is saying (like when I want > > to talk about all and potentially not-currently-relevant bears that > > are in the cage). > > If you want to talk about them, and they are bears, then they can relevantly > be said to be bears. Your wanting to talk about them automatically makes > them relevant to the discourse. If your audience, for whatever reason, is > not on your same page, you have to bring them there in order to be able > to communicate effectively. There is no universally fixed referent of "bears > in that cage" that can be relied on for every possible context ever. > Yes, there is: "all the bears in that cage now". How is this even remotely ambiguous? > > Also, what is the difference between your {L_ cribe}, and your {L_ ro cribe}? > > {ro} emphasizes that none can be left out. For instance, in the example > I gave before about the quotas: "All bears killed by people, including > emergency kills, illegal kills, subsistence, and sport hunting must > be accounted for under the quota", the "all" is important: each and every > bear must be accounted for. It is also fairly clear from just that single > sentence that it does not refer to all bears killed by people ever and > anywhere, but if you read the whole document where the sentence comes > from it is even more clear that it's about grizzly bears in the Gwich'in > Settlement Area, (and obviously not concerned about killings in that area > before the agreement came into effect, whenever that was). I would > certainly use {ro} in a Lojban translation of that. > So you're saing that {L_ cribe} defaults to {L_ su'o cribe}, "some relevant bears"? To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.