From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue May 16 18:41:39 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 16 May 2006 18:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FgB2P-0007Se-1c for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 16 May 2006 18:41:21 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0102.google.com ([64.233.162.192]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FgB2M-0007SW-8B for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 16 May 2006 18:41:20 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0102.google.com with SMTP id f1so132512nzc for ; Tue, 16 May 2006 18:41:09 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=WNmm0p6I9bstIp2MA4UBKIb0UBFTGxRwuOX60SYhzdxiG7z7FY4vZavZcMx7OGbM3LbVIPFjIVL0NVT7rt9/2aqVfookUNexgWSTqYnXkgp5XunjQY1JCZdtMFAIwmaOFU6kwAfbS9LYDNyl8IXlHLWsbvXNgv+vepZpdS4522w= Received: by 10.36.90.16 with SMTP id n16mr240013nzb; Tue, 16 May 2006 18:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.153.14 with HTTP; Tue, 16 May 2006 18:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 19:41:09 -0600 From: "Maxim Katcharov" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Usage of lo and le In-Reply-To: <4469F299.7030102@ropine.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <4463F513.7060207@ropine.com> <4464E7EE.8000104@ropine.com> <4469F299.7030102@ropine.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11578 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 5/16/06, Seth Gordon wrote: > Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > My default /is/ what you describe right here. When you don't specify a > > default inner quantifier, the listener will automatically think "all > > relevant things", just as when you leave out time tense, they'll think > > "all relevant times". > > > > You had said: "{lo ro cribe cu morsi}, and be understood as saying > > that all the bears *in this museum* are dead". If you had said {lo > > cribe cu morsi}, the effect would be the same, would it not? The > > listener would assume that you mean all bears in the museum. > > In a museum, I might assume that either the museum had all live bears or > all dead bears, and so I would interpret {lo cribe cu morsi} as meaning > the latter. You had said: {lo ro cribe cu morsi}, and be understood as saying that all the bears *in this museum* are dead. and now you said: {lo cribe cu morsi} as meaning that the museum had all dead bears I don't see these as different. > > On the other hand, if I was hiking in the woods of Lojbanistan and my > native guide said {lo cribe cu morsi}, I would *not* assume that he was > saying that *all* the bears in these woods were dead. And if he said {lo ro cribe cu morsi} you would assume that all bears in this forest were dead? Well, if the native guide said "the bears are dead", and there were no bears apparent to me or him, and we were talking about the forest, I would assume that he meant that the bears in the forest were dead. If we were talking about a section of the forest, then probably the bears in that section. If we were talking about/seeing a couple of bears laying on the ground, probably about those bears. If he said "the bears are dead" out of the blue, and with no context (we met on the street or whatever), I'd assume that he meant that all the bears were dead. In each of these cases, he would be saying {L_ cribe cu morsi}. What if he said {L_ ro cribe poi nenri [this forest]}, or {L_ ro cribe poi nenri [this forest-section]}, or {L_ ro cribe poi [that we see]}? The contexts would be apparent there. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.