From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri May 19 06:38:35 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 19 May 2006 06:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fh5BJ-0004CY-5E for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 19 May 2006 06:38:17 -0700 Received: from web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.122]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1Fh5BH-0004CD-6Q for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 19 May 2006 06:38:17 -0700 Received: (qmail 95650 invoked by uid 60001); 19 May 2006 13:38:14 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=f2RVfZ7yiZEbVbvboxX2it1OgqXx8nIdBa4129aL0k8ls1R7H7NoI64WCMgPqgS17QacYGWpJqqOT2LsrOYC48w8zNHQ29Ytdoz7cEQz5x9Io/T7z0t8y+gb2bYInMLFqAJx/mb3+12TICHkml81djGLjkj2ajZxf/l03miOi/w= ; Message-ID: <20060519133814.95648.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [70.237.229.49] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 19 May 2006 06:38:14 PDT Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 06:38:14 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-archive-position: 11623 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --- Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > On 5/18/06, Jorge Llambías > wrote: > > > > > > {mu L_ ro cribe cu ba zasti} > > > > > Five bears, out of all hypothetical > future bears, will exist in the future. > > > > > > > > Yes, that's "out of all bears, exactly > five will exist (at some > > > > unspecified time > > > > in the future)". > > > > > > "[out of] all bears" amounts to my "[out > of] the set of all > > > hypothetical/possible permutations of > bears". Does this clarify how > > > I'm using this > 'hypothetical-all-permutiation set'? Or do you > disagree > > > with this? > > > > > > If you disagree, then how are you using > "[out of] all bears" in that > > > above sentance? > > > > I was using it in my sense, i.e. "out of all > things that count as bears". > > What counts as bears? Bears that will actually > exist in the future? > Surely not, consider: > > {mu L_ ro cribe cu ba zasti} > > "five of all-bears-such-that(-will)-exist will > exist"? That wouldn't > say anything at all. You need a hypothetical > mega-set so that it > becomes comprehensible: "five of > all-hypothetical-future-bears will > exist". > > > > You don't mean "(out of) the set of all > bears that > > > will exist", because that wouldn't work. > > > > No. But notice all the different things it > could still mean: > > > > ze'e ba ku mu cribe su'o roi ku zasti > > From here to eternity, exactly five bears > will be such that each at least > > at one time exists. > > > > ze'e ba ku mu cribe ro roi ku zasti > > From here to eternity, exactly five bears > will be such that each at every > > time exists. > > > > ze'e ba ku su'o roi ku mu cribe zasti > > From here to eternity, there will be at > least one time when exactly five > > bears exist. > > > > ze'e ba ku ro roi ku mu cribe zasti > > From here to eternity, every time time > will be such that exactly five > > bears will exist at that time. > > > > All say different things. And that's just > with {ro roi} and {su'o roi}. > > I don't see what this says regarding the > impossibility of using this mega-set. > > To me 1 & 3 and 2 & 4 look identical in terms > of final meaning: > > {ze'e ba ku mu cribe su'o roi ku zasti} > > "in-all-of future, 5 of some set of bears, will > at some points exist" > > {ze'e ba ku su'o roi ku mu cribe cu zasti} > > "in-all-of future will at some points exist 5 > of some set of bears" Not the same at all. One says that for each of five bears there will be a time that it exists; the other says that there is a time when all five of these bears exist together. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.