From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat May 20 06:51:52 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 20 May 2006 06:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FhRrO-0001Ox-8w for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 20 May 2006 06:51:15 -0700 Received: from web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.127]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FhRrD-0001Oa-V9 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 20 May 2006 06:51:10 -0700 Received: (qmail 97806 invoked by uid 60001); 20 May 2006 13:51:02 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=PyR60wKXZVtEqZ6vNdyr8v6JLm7LVAeZ3TDkICUk+pF826eGAkAyG8RR5vUaPH7s5pJjCyeA+mdyWOq4YX2ZdV1f4yJbzfyrUUtjPv9iNuHsiidZ/GIy2EkhUeFeeleT5lVWFZPoQfi39jAoPrpNzWwpLc6IpDAmFn3vXtK9R/8= ; Message-ID: <20060520135102.97804.qmail@web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [70.237.137.218] by web81311.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 20 May 2006 06:51:02 PDT Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 06:51:02 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-archive-position: 11636 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --- Maxim Katcharov wrote: > On 5/19/06, John E Clifford > wrote: > > > > > > --- Maxim Katcharov > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On 5/18/06, Jorge Llambías > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > {mu L_ ro cribe cu ba zasti} > > > > > > > Five bears, out of all hypothetical > > > future bears, will exist in the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that's "out of all bears, > exactly > > > five will exist (at some > > > > > > unspecified time > > > > > > in the future)". > > > > > > > > > > "[out of] all bears" amounts to my > "[out > > > of] the set of all > > > > > hypothetical/possible permutations of > > > bears". Does this clarify how > > > > > I'm using this > > > 'hypothetical-all-permutiation set'? Or do > you > > > disagree > > > > > with this? > > > > > > > > > > If you disagree, then how are you using > > > "[out of] all bears" in that > > > > > above sentance? > > > > > > > > I was using it in my sense, i.e. "out of > all > > > things that count as bears". > > > > > > What counts as bears? Bears that will > actually > > > exist in the future? > > > Surely not, consider: > > > > > > {mu L_ ro cribe cu ba zasti} > > > > > > "five of all-bears-such-that(-will)-exist > will > > > exist"? That wouldn't > > > say anything at all. You need a > hypothetical > > > mega-set so that it > > > becomes comprehensible: "five of > > > all-hypothetical-future-bears will > > > exist". > > > > > > > > You don't mean "(out of) the set of all > > > bears that > > > > > will exist", because that wouldn't > work. > > > > > > > > No. But notice all the different things > it > > > could still mean: > > > > > > > > ze'e ba ku mu cribe su'o roi ku zasti > > > > From here to eternity, exactly five > bears > > > will be such that each at least > > > > at one time exists. > > > > > > > > ze'e ba ku mu cribe ro roi ku zasti > > > > From here to eternity, exactly five > bears > > > will be such that each at every > > > > time exists. > > > > > > > > ze'e ba ku su'o roi ku mu cribe > zasti > > > > From here to eternity, there will be > at > > > least one time when exactly five > > > > bears exist. > > > > > > > > ze'e ba ku ro roi ku mu cribe zasti > > > > From here to eternity, every time > time > > > will be such that exactly five > > > > bears will exist at that time. > > > > > > > > All say different things. And that's just > > > with {ro roi} and {su'o roi}. > > > > > > I don't see what this says regarding the > > > impossibility of using this mega-set. > > > > > > To me 1 & 3 and 2 & 4 look identical in > terms > > > of final meaning: > > > > > > {ze'e ba ku mu cribe su'o roi ku zasti} > > > > > > "in-all-of future, 5 of some set of bears, > will > > > at some points exist" > > > > > > {ze'e ba ku su'o roi ku mu cribe cu zasti} > > > > > > "in-all-of future will at some points exist > 5 > > > of some set of bears" > > > > Not the same at all. One says that for each > of > > five bears there will be a time that it > exists; > > the other says that there is a time when all > five > > of these bears exist together. > > > > I should have a better look at the CLL. I was > rather certain that it > said that the placement of those when not as an > inner, and when using > ku made changes only to emphasis, and not to > meaning. Linear order of quantifiers is decisive for scope, i.e., whether {su'o} is after and hence in the scope of {mu} or the other way around. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.