From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu May 25 09:58:11 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 25 May 2006 09:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FjJ9j-0005uQ-63 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 25 May 2006 09:57:51 -0700 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.171]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.61) (envelope-from ) id 1FjJ9f-0005uJ-NK for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 25 May 2006 09:57:51 -0700 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id j40so2069647ugd for ; Thu, 25 May 2006 09:57:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=s4PfZZkHWb43RhaEao2iBCUIUCRuBSleRl1E8fFcrCFB9GRVU+NVGwmoWs8yD78M3KRrDID8qeBCQHofo4bq24loHGHFG7XXQ5sZmIM4KcLElNPQlgsN/HLtXGnVIF74f3QUg6Wnfy6mtM+oxZuEr4gmUjf6GJJJYwCCW+WjbpQ= Received: by 10.78.67.20 with SMTP id p20mr2454369hua; Thu, 25 May 2006 09:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.23.12 with HTTP; Thu, 25 May 2006 09:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560605250957g29c9e972l4543c11102fc891f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 13:57:46 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560605160731j379ecfdbo42862a88433e112c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605221856w7c5703b4p9ec1d1b296e67093@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605230610r25b3f886tbaa964838a659d74@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605231539l2bdbcf8bqe44d242fa371eed7@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560605240608t20353b28gd96dea490efc8a71@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 11674 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 5/24/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > You can be ambiguous between cat and elephant by saying "animal". You > can be ambiguous between 1 and 20 by saying "some". You can be > ambiguous between tree and happiness by saying something like > "concept". But to be ambiguous between "each one of these did" and > "the thing (with parts: each one of these) did" ... there is no > superclass that I'm aware of. How about "these did"? "These wore hats", "these surrounded the building". Maybe the problem is "the thing with parts", but there is no thing with parts here, there are just the things themselves. In this regard, you might find this of interest: > 1 "some/all of the bears" > 2 "some/all of the four bears" > 3 "four of the bears" > 4 "some/all of bears" ("some/all of [all of a set-of-bears]") > 5 "all of the bears" > 6 "four of bears" ("four of [all of a set-of-bears]") > 7 "all of the four bears" > > So there are 7 things to say. You want to say them in 3 different ways: > > a: "individually, ..." > b: "together, ..." > c: "either individually or together, ..." > > 3 * 7 = 21. But you have the 7 variants, but only {loi} and {lo}. 2 * > 7 = 14. I don't know which 7 variants you mean, there are an indefinitely large number of variants available. > Clearly, you need to sacrifice being able to say a few things. > 7/21 (1 of 3 ways) are covered by loi - when you have loi, you mean > 'b', so we have to worry only about saying 'a' and 'c' using the > remaining 7 {lo}-based methods: > > 1 {lo cribe} > 2 {lo vo cribe} > 3 {vo lo cribe} > 4 {lo ro cribe} - ambiguously "all of the bears" > 5 {ro lo cribe} - individually "all of the bears" > 6 {vo lo ro cribe} > 7 {ro lo vo cribe} Notice that 1, 2 and 4 are not how I would translate the English versions. I might use: 1. su'o ja ro lo cribe 2. su'o ja ro lo vo cribe 4. su'o ja ro lo ro cribe > But where did your... > > 4:"individually, an unspecified quantity of all of a relevant group of X" > e.g. "some of all the hats were beautiful" su'o le ro mapku cu melbi > 5:"ambiguously, all of an unspecified quantity of X" Not sure what you mean there. In what sense ambiguously? > ...disappear to? (Not to imply that I think that those are the proper > ways to say those things, only that they're they ways that you say > them.) Some of them yes, some not. > And how do you say 2 and 3 both individually, and ambiguously? > > > Point being, you don't have enough Lojbanic structures available to be > able to add "ambiguously", without scattering what is a very good and > consistent method. And that's what has happened. There are in fact an excess of structures available. If Lojban had had a single gadri things would have been so much easier. > Putting aside togetherness/individuality > > "all the hats were beautiful" > > can very well translate to > > {ro lo mapku cu melbi} > > based on the assertions that you made regarding inner and outer > quantifiers in all of the latter half of your last response. Not sure what you mean by "putting aside togetherness/individuality". {ro lo mapku cu melbi} says of the hats that each of them is beautiful. > Here's a rather interesting statement: You don't have any real meaning > for inner {ro}. "All of some group" is handled by {ro lo mapku}. But > because you could, you gave inner {ro} (with a blank outer, at least) > the meaning: > > {lo ro mapku} > (some?, all?) out of all of the relevant group of hats > "all the hats" (e.g. "...in the store") > > which, based on the rules that you clearly laid out for inner and > outer quantifiers, is effectively the same as: > > {ro lo mapku} > all of the relevant group of hats The closest translations for me would be: {ro lo mapku} = each hat {lo ro mapku} = all hats The first one has to be distributive. The second one may or may not be, depending on the context. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.