From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Jun 03 16:53:29 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 03 Jun 2006 16:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmfvZ-0002hP-M1 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 16:53:09 -0700 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.171]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmfvY-0002hB-JY for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 16:53:09 -0700 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id j40so874077ugd for ; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 16:53:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=JKV7IRkG4ZKPe/GTnqXHtG+fZ3agkSXqz/quL3lOQEaoWxmLLt73BHN0kTBOdYZzSzFLQF1avHwOsA/49sMr4WMfxFXEazlNAuHurs4hLFTt7ix9ihh5gx6gsFx6KmU9KmmNC/F19gO+chMyckxua6hcrzZqP9b9DijJ4LyQnFk= Received: by 10.67.15.3 with SMTP id s3mr2073660ugi; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 16:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.255.6 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 16:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 17:53:07 -0600 From: "Maxim Katcharov" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} In-Reply-To: <925d17560606031507u3caf439fof06571b7b02e3e6d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060603162029.74094.qmail@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <925d17560606031507u3caf439fof06571b7b02e3e6d@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-archive-position: 11719 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 6/3/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 6/3/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > > > What /is/ the relationship between the referring expression and the objects? > > That would be {sinxa}, "x1 refers to x2": > > lu le tadni li'u cu sinxa le tadni > The expression {le tadni} refers to the students. > > > First there's the relationship between the students and the hats. > > That one is {dasni}, "x1 wears x2": > > le tadni cu dasni le mapku > The students wear the hats. > Yes > > Then, there's the relationship between the students and the building. > > That one is {sruri}, "x1 surrounds x2": > > le tadni cu sruri le dinju > The students surround the building. > Yes > > I > > want to know the relationship between *Alice* and the surroundment of > > the building. > > That one might be {pagbu}, "x1 is a part of x2": > > la alis cu pagbu lo nu sruri le dinju > Alice is part of the surrounding of the building. > "-ment" was used in the sense of "act" and not in the sense of "event": ...the relationship between Alice and the "surrounding of the building" (i.e. the predicatation) > > Mass: Alice is part of the composite entity that surrounds the building > > That might be: > > la alis cu pagbu lo gunma dacti poi sruri le dinju > Alice is part of the composite object that surrounds the building. > Sure, though you don't need dacti. Alternatively: da poi sruri le dinju cu gunma la alis That which surrounds the building is a mass that includes Alice as a component > > So, what is the relationship between Alice and the building? > > Probably {mlana}, "x1 is to the side of x2": > > la alis cu mlana le dinju > Alice is to the side of the building. > > > Or the > > surroundment of the building? (Alice being one of the 26 students that > > surround it.) > > la alis me pa le re xa tadni poi sruri le dinju > Alice is one of the 26 students that surround the building. > Are the relationships "26 students surround the building" and "26 students wear hats" different in any way? There is a distinct difference between how "26 students" is used in the former, and how it is used in the latter (even if the referent is the same), yes? If so, then in exactly what way does your response describe a relationship between Alice and the surroundment of the building that is in any way different from the Alice's wearing of a hat? la alis me pa le re xa tadni poi dasni le mapku Alice is one of the 26 students that wear a hat You've rephrased, but the same question applies: what is the distinction between "bunch, individually" and "bunch, together"? Is it possible to describe "bunch, together" in a way that explains how it is distinct from "bunch, individually", or "mass"? Mass: Alice is part of the composite entity that surrounds the building Bunch, individually: We are not treating Alice this way, so this does not apply. (If this were the hat example: Alice, herself, wears one+ of the bunch of hats implied by the blank inner of {lo mapku}) Bunch, together (but not in the sense of mass or group): Alice's relationship to the surrounding of the building is ??? What is the difference between the latter two relationships? 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