From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Jun 03 19:25:26 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 03 Jun 2006 19:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmiIW-0005Ac-S0 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 19:25:02 -0700 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.239]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FmiIQ-0005AP-OE for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 19:24:59 -0700 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i7so785946wra for ; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 19:24:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Y3ih2X//94e6u+M78hys6RbjLW97Ds4YLMtnoUfCwBWOb6kAPhz80Dp6x79U3R1hXcNPqGnT/j9xKZw1rGdHog92uRw5Vt58urnn3Znb58zdW9aqtaxao7hHNtgzUeDiNaBJIgzF/aaaPglocygAyq9B4moT+sM9ttOkxtUqt6E= Received: by 10.65.236.9 with SMTP id n9mr2708071qbr; Sat, 03 Jun 2006 19:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.237.19 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Jun 2006 19:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560606031924x522d0655kb30e8441b87adda9@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 23:24:53 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060603162029.74094.qmail@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <925d17560606031507u3caf439fof06571b7b02e3e6d@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560606031815w3179c445tc9b750f97931f114@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11722 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 6/3/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > On 6/3/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > > No, "26 students" refers in both cases to 26 students and it is only used > > for that, in both cases to refer to those 26 students. > > > No, it *refers* to the 26 students in the same way (by your > reckoning), but it is *used* differently. Its only use is to refer, in both cases. > It is absurd to suggest that > "26 students" is *used* in the exact same way in both "...surrounded > the building" and "...wore hats". II don't see what's absurd about it. > In "...wore hats", it is used in a way that means that Alice herself wore a hat. Yes, because "wore hats" is distributive. > In "...surrounded the building", it is used in a way that means Alice...? ...participated in the surrounding of the building, because "surrounded the building" is collective. The difference comes from the two different predicates, not from the referring expression "26 students". > One answer is that she was a component of the mass that surrounded the > building - this is my answer. I don't have an objection to that. > The other answer (that you offered) was that she was the referent of > the 26 students that surround the building. She is _one of_ the referents, yes. > This doesn't explain > anything, because she's also a referent of the 26 students that wore > hats. Of course, since "the 26 students" has the same referents in both cases, if she is one of them in one case she is one of them in the other. There is no difference in the referring expression. The difference is in the predicate. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.