From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Jun 05 18:55:28 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FnQmj-0006fW-9x for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:55:09 -0700 Received: from mxsf31.cluster1.charter.net ([209.225.28.130]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FnQmg-0006fL-BX for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Jun 2006 18:55:09 -0700 Received: from mxip29a.cluster1.charter.net (mxip29a.cluster1.charter.net [209.225.28.188]) by mxsf31.cluster1.charter.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k561t4hi021935 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:55:04 -0400 Received: from 24-247-28-251.dhcp.bycy.mi.charter.com (HELO [192.168.123.137]) ([24.247.28.251]) by mxip29a.cluster1.charter.net with ESMTP; 05 Jun 2006 21:55:04 -0400 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,213,1146456000"; d="scan'208"; a="1250895181:sNHT18815128" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) In-Reply-To: References: <20060605202242.56556.qmail@web81315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7886206A-AE55-4E98-B39F-7493E7A2DBBB@umich.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis From: Alex Martini Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:55:00 -0400 To: lojban-list@lojban.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 11738 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: alexjm@umich.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On Jun 5, 2006, at 9:12 PM, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > On 6/5/06, John E Clifford wrote: >> --- Maxim Katcharov >> wrote: >> >> > On 5/29/06, Jorge Llambías >> > wrote: >> > > On 5/29/06, Maxim Katcharov >> > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > My argument here was that the burden of >> > proof is on you to show that >> > > > a) this pluralist view exists >> > > >> > > You can check that the pluralist view exists >> > for example starting >> > > here: >> > >> >> > > The "external links" at the bottom of the >> > page are also interesting. >> > > >> > >> > I don't argue that people don't support it, I >> > argue that it has no >> > distinct existance aside from "mass", and so is >> > not correct. >> >> I suggest you actually read the book, especially >> the formal semantics. Or read some of Quine's >> stuff (I'm sorry I don't have references to >> hand). > > I've read the first chapter of McKay's, and found that the author > confused several issues. For example, he states that Alice is not a > shipmate on her own, when she clearly is. She is shipmate of Bryce and > Carol, etc. because she is in the same group as them, and not a > shipmate of David and Erica, because they are of a different group. > > Two things regarding the suggestion. First, it seems that you think > that I don't understand how it works. I think that I do understand how > it works, it's just that I disagree with it. Second, I'm not arguing > with Quine, or McKay, because sadly they don't subscribe to this list. > I'm arguing with you and xorxes. I expect you to be able to argue > against my position as well as Quine or McKay would, otherwise you > really have no business arguing for or believing in their position. > If I show you to be wrong, you'll may just end up falling back on "oh, > well, that doesn't mean that Quine was wrong". > I beg to differ -- no person can ever be his own shipmate, any more than he can be his own sibling or classmate or anything else of that type. The word inherently implies a *different* member of the *same* group. For example, if I say {Alice and her shipmates arrived.}, including Alice in her shipmates is quite absurd since she is then counted twice. If I say {All my classmates left the room.}, I don't include myself. These types of words simply don't allow a reciprocal relationship. mu'omi'e .aleks. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.