From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Jun 08 16:13:09 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 08 Jun 2006 16:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FoTgI-0003Td-1P for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 16:12:50 -0700 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.177]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1FoTgH-0003TW-1y for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 16:12:49 -0700 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id i49so71922pye for ; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 16:12:47 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=bxXQXU4BB//PESYaD5DAJxMTjCLLTwQdIVcrDZCQH1ps/FpOj3PG+XzqIKgFKJt055R2Vjv+/ZyoPMblfmXbhg24kmVQujQvpYT8FOIh+XbRsusK/qqiOQRATXY17aHyqj4iCuupjMX9zqFQQXkPGo4CqsLaFaLSIKsnZSpXoJ8= Received: by 10.35.26.14 with SMTP id d14mr3053426pyj; Thu, 08 Jun 2006 16:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.35.39.13 with HTTP; Thu, 8 Jun 2006 16:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 17:12:47 -0600 From: "Maxim Katcharov" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} In-Reply-To: <925d17560606080832j516fc7c9g7783a394f3d1074a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20060606175408.36256.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <925d17560606071637u1dfabac7n6e3551086a616f58@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560606080643r55da8773gd4fad0bdac0c505a@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560606080832j516fc7c9g7783a394f3d1074a@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-archive-position: 11769 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: maxim.katcharov@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 6/8/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 6/8/06, Maxim Katcharov wrote: > > On 6/8/06, Jorge Llambías wrote: > > > > > The building is surrounded by students and professors together. Then: > > > > > > loi tadni cu sruri le dinju > > > Students surround the building. > > > > > > is false. > > > > No, true. > > Are you sure? Is "Alice surrounds the building" true? Is "Alice and Betty > surround the building" true? Suppose Alice and Betty are the only students > in the group, and the rest of the people surrounding the building are > professors, > is "Students surround the building" true? Yes, it becomes much more apparent (to me, at least) once written out in Lojban. It's not {la alis cu sruri lo dinju}, it's {lu'o la alis cu sruri dinju}. As in other aspects of Lojban, saying one thing does not preclude another. Usually, the speaker would say "Alice and the professors surrounded" in the first place, so this wouldn't be so strange. However, if asked "did Alice surround?", or better put "was Alice a surround-mate?" (which is a more exact, though unorthodox translation), one would say yes. The strict "Alice and Betty surround the building" would be {[la ales e la betis] sruri lo dinju} which, yes, in this case is false. > > > > {gunma} does mean "consists of". But even if you think {gunma} means > > > something else, the predicate that you need to make your expansion > > > of {loi} is one that means "x1 consists of x2", not one that means > > > "x1 has component x2" > > > > Ah. No, I don't need it to make my expansion. > > I think you do. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.