From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jul 11 08:56:59 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 11 Jul 2006 08:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G0KbK-0004iE-9G for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 08:56:42 -0700 Received: from mx.211.ru ([193.238.131.194]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G0KbG-0004i5-SR for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 08:56:42 -0700 Received: from localhost (mx.211.ru [193.238.131.194]) by mx.211.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD0DEBE09 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2006 00:00:51 +0700 (NOVST) Received: from mx.211.ru ([193.238.131.194]) by localhost (mx.211.ru [193.238.131.194]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 89330-04 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2006 00:00:50 +0700 (NOVST) Received: from mail.211.ru (mail [10.5.1.2]) by mx.211.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17FA3EBCEB for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2006 00:00:49 +0700 (NOVST) Received: from localhost (host-102-2-129.211.ru [10.102.2.129]) by mail.211.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2F005C15 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 2006 23:08:59 +0700 (NOVST) Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 22:56:25 +0700 From: Yanis Batura X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.5.30) Professional X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <685871132.20060711225625@mail.ru> To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Already. Yet. Still. Whole. Only. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------BE15219F90D6550" X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) X-archive-position: 12101 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: ybatura@mail.ru Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ------------BE15219F90D6550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1) I have a book. 2) I have a book already. 3) I haven't a book. 4) I haven't a book yet. 5) I still haven't a book. 6) I have slept for seven hours. 7) I have slept only for seven hours. 8) I have slept for whole seven hours. SHORTER VERSION OF THE QUESTION: How are these translated to Lojban? LONGER VERSION OF THE QUESTION: The above examples represent three groups of sentences (1-2, 3-5, 6-8). Members of the same group bear the same factual information. They differ only in special words (adverbs "already", "yet", "still", "only" and adjective "whole"). If we take a closer look to the semantical, and not grammatical, side of these words, we will see that there is a common property among them - they are used for comparison with typical situation or probabilities from the listener's point of view. Indeed: In the second sentence, "already" confirms that (from the listener's point of view) there is a non-zero probability that the speaker has not started having a book (however he has). In the fourth sentence, "yet" confirms that, from the listener's point of view, there is a non-zero probability that the speaker has started having a book (however he hasn't). In the fifth sentence, "still" confirms that, from the listener's point of view, there is a high probability that the speaker has started having a book (however he hasn't). In the seventh sentence, "only" confirms that the typical situation presupposed sleeping for *more* than seven hours. In the eighth sentence, "whole" confirms that the typical situation presupposed sleeping for *less* than seven hours. Since words (adverbs / etc.) of the same purpose are present not only in all Indo-European languages, but also in many others (Chinese, for example), Lojban should (or must?) have its ways to express their meaning. Has it? Yanis Batura, a persistent fan of Lojban ------------BE15219F90D6550 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

1) I have a book.

2) I have a book already.

3) I haven't a book.

4) I haven't a book yet.

5) I still haven't a book.

6) I have slept for seven hours.

7) I have slept only for seven hours.

8) I have slept for whole seven hours.

SHORTER VERSION OF THE QUESTION:

How are these translated to Lojban?

LONGER VERSION OF THE QUESTION:

The above examples represent three groups of sentences (1-2, 3-5, 6-8).

Members of the same group bear the same factual information.

They differ only in special words (adverbs "already", "yet", "still", "only" and adjective "whole").

If we take a closer look to the semantical, and not grammatical, side of these words, we will see that there is a common property among them - they are used for comparison with typical situation or probabilities from the listener's point of view.

Indeed:

In the second sentence, "already" confirms that (from the listener's point of view) there is a non-zero probability that the speaker has not started having a book (however he has).

In the fourth sentence, "yet" confirms that, from the listener's point of view, there is a non-zero probability that the speaker has started having a book (however he hasn't).

In the fifth sentence, "still" confirms that, from the listener's point of view, there is a high probability that the speaker has started having a book (however he hasn't).

In the seventh sentence, "only" confirms that the typical situation presupposed sleeping for *more* than seven hours.

In the eighth sentence, "whole" confirms that the typical situation presupposed sleeping for *less* than seven hours.

Since words (adverbs / etc.) of the same purpose are present not only in all Indo-European languages, but also in many others (Chinese, for example), Lojban should (or must?) have its ways to express their meaning. Has it?

Yanis Batura,

a persistent fan of Lojban

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