From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jul 19 13:58:52 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G3J7o-0002wj-0G for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:58:32 -0700 Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.121]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1G3J7n-0002wc-0d for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:58:31 -0700 Received: (qmail 21068 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Jul 2006 20:58:29 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Message-ID:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=zv+TlP4Mkuelo2fuSvg/AqWA+U8zeAPjwgWTbbOGOVxlf7Lgi9bkLfJqMREYD7FEdnChIHZbWT5lzPRlUJG3RN72rf5GVoEnhpkei0rTbm9DQP2kL8VBWqijjbGUmnoZf5GCsBUqyxJ/jf/jrB9LFS5qbPQSGX7kaXenBcoULq4= ; Message-ID: <20060719205829.21066.qmail@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [70.237.215.206] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:58:29 PDT Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:58:29 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: A (rather long) discussion of {all} To: lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <925d17560607191055p7c2679a1w34844c667d81eef6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-archive-position: 12252 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --- Jorge Llamb�as wrote: > On 7/19/06, John E Clifford wrote: > > --- Jorge Llamb�as wrote: > > > > > If the boys carrying chairs in pairs makes "the boys carry chairs" c-true, > > > then surely the boys carrying chairs individually must make it c-true as well. > > > > I agree, in this case. But it could be c-true without their carrying them > > individually (as in your example above), so it could be c-true and not d-true. > > That has never been in dispute. > > On the other hand,"the students wore > > hats" is d-true but not c-true (on a normal reading) > > What is the difference between wearing a hat and carrying a chair that > makes "the students carry chairs" c-true but "the students wear hats" > not c-true, when in both cases each student does? > At least two things: 1) hats, by their nature, can only be worn by one person at a time, so the collective does not make sense 2) "hats" is indefinite: if it were "the students wore THE hats" a collective would be possible because we now have a specific group to cover, that is we can get a group-group relationship which is not available with the indefinite (to be sure three is the group of worn hats, but that is not mentioned, it merely is. Note that the collective sense for wearing hats can only arise from the distributive one, whereas the case for carrying chairs might come from any arrangement of the members of the group and the chairs. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.