From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Oct 24 11:43:28 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GcREy-00085o-V7 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:43:09 -0700 Received: from regin.oit.pdx.edu ([131.252.120.56]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GcREo-00085V-6m for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:43:08 -0700 Received: from grerr.oit.pdx.edu (grerr.oit.pdx.edu [131.252.120.19]) by regin.oit.pdx.edu (8.13.3+/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k9OIgnMh005067 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:42:50 -0700 Received: from grerr.oit.pdx.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by grerr.oit.pdx.edu (8.13.3+/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k9OIgn58014703; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:42:49 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: grerr.oit.pdx.edu: Host localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1] claimed to be grerr.oit.pdx.edu Received: (from sec@localhost) by grerr.oit.pdx.edu (8.13.3+/8.13.1) id k9OIgnqE014702; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:42:49 -0700 Received: from c-24-22-28-147.hsd1.or.comcast.net (c-24-22-28-147.hsd1.or.comcast.net [24.22.28.147]) by webmail.pdx.edu (IMP) with HTTP for ; Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:42:49 -0700 Message-ID: <1161715369.453e5ea9dc446@webmail.pdx.edu> Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:42:49 -0700 From: Ryan Keppel To: lojban-list@lojban.org, Andrii Zvorygin Subject: [lojban] Re: Dropping the speech References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.6 X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-archive-position: 12785 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: keppel@pdx.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list .a'usai I think that you are getting to the heart of what I am talking about. Lojban is a "bridge" towards eventual binary language. The fact that it is parsable makes it unlike any other "natural" language on Earth (as far as I know, no other languages, including Esperanto, have this vital characteristic). As you say, we start with Lojban. Once we remove the need to be spoken, we get to the more interesting parts that you describe here. All of this will interact heavily with transhumanism. This will happen to both aspects of transhumanism. Top-down, our brain chips will understand Lojban natively. Bottom-up, our computers already can parse Lojban. They just need the semantic background to interact in it. fe'o (Actually the Big Red Book notes that "fe'o" is specifically meant for machines.) Quoting Andrii Zvorygin : doi Ryan, well I'm glad that you've returned to the Lojban community. Offering support that we indeed need. The project you seem to be working on seems similar to mine, maybe we can merge, and work on them together? here is a "tip of the iceberg" description of what I'm working on: http://lokiworld.org/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page Have you ever noticed how in science fiction literature, often people speak to the computer and they understand the user, and do what they were asked. Well have you ever tried typing or talking to your computer? Did it talk back? You probably think this is a ridiculous notion. So currently, this project, that we'll call the We With You Network, is going to allow for you to talk to your computer, and have it do what you want it to do. The We With You Network is really an programming project that will turn into the We With You Network. We start with Lojban, a human-to-human language based on Predicate Logic. Predicate Logic can be defined in lay terms as a form of math that can express "natural language"(like English) statements. For instance "something went to someplace" could be expressed as G(x,y) in predicate calculus (though thats very simplified version) as we also have to express what the G stands for, as well as declaring if it's "for each" variable or "for all" variables. In Lojban, the same statement can be expressed as "da klAma di", which literally translates as "something1 is/was/will be a goer that goes to something2". It very versatile for instance "mi ba klAma la frAns. la kAneda. fu lo vOfli" means "I will go to France from Canada with method of transportation being flight." Predicate logic has been used before to form programming languages for example "Prolog". Though as you may have noticed by the predicate logic example in the above paragraph. Raw predicate logic isn't very useful to the layperson. However something most people are capable of is language. Lojban is a language, it can easily be used for human-to-human interaction -- I use it every day, and learned enough to understand just about everything people were writing in just three weeks, tutorial found here: http://tinyurl.com/ygrzr7. So with Lojban we can make a logical programming language, making it as easy to communicate to the computer as to other people. At first it will be like communicating to a naive child, but in time as the network expands and more functionality is added, so will the experience of the computer. In order to have a sustainable -- lets call the We With You Network program, prOgram -- prOgram, we can not allow it to turn into a monolithic program (all in one chunk), and we must make it so anyone will be able to contribute. So we can do this by having the "predicates"(AKA "predicate logic statements" AKA "lojban sentances") all have the functionality which they describe. For instance: fAnva zo mlAtu la Englic. la lOjban zoi.gy. cat .gy. means: the single lojban world "mlatu", translates as "cat" in english. this is a fact that the computer will know, all facts can be stored as statements (unless you can't think of them), and the computer will know them(will store them, and be capable of retrieving and using them). To tell the computer to do something you can say "ko fanva zo mlAtu" and the computer, knowing the facts that you speak la Englic. and with the knowledge of how to translate mlAtu into english, it can output the desired result. For things more complex than word for word translation you will probably at least in the begining, prefer to use a well established language like: Java, C, C++. We are going to support creating functions in any language you can make it into an executable, (for Java you can make a shell script to execute your function). Still with me? Good job, you are doing well .ui.o'a(meaning happiness and pride in reference to last statement). Now you get to hear about the network. With all these predicates that we will be creating more or less on the fly, we will probably be to lazy to distribute manually. The solution being that you can use a distributed network like that of Freenet to pass the predicates around. Why? you ask. The answer is this: due to the scale of this project, the many possibilities it will have, centralized control will not work. Can you trust that a predicate you get from another computer is not malicious? that it is not a virus? Do you know everything that is happening in your computer right now? These are all security issues. If you aren't connected to people you know, then you don't know how reliable the information you get is. You can design a predicate, test it make sure it works, pass it to your friend, who's computer will automatically put the predicate in a isolated sandbox, and it will run the predicate through a few test runs to make sure it outputs what it should according to the inputs either you already had archived from earlier or at worst passed from you as well. The sandbox will make sure that the predicate makes no changes to the system other than those it's supposed to, then it will mark it as a safe predicate and move it into the computers database of knowledge. (note this is but one variation of what you can do to every incoming predicate, you can take literally as many measures as you can imagine and have the resources for). The computer will be managed mainly by the computer itself, though it will add filters and optimization filters to itself based on the suggestions of it's network friends (trusted, useful nodes), the computer itself probably running evolutionary algorithms to try and speed up the function of predicates that are causing bottle necks in the system. Again I reiterate, this is just one possibility of how it can operate. there are as many things possible as a language is capable of expressing, and lojban aims to express at least as much as the rest of the languages in the world can express. So the We With You Network in the end, will be the nodes (individual computers) communicating to each other. In fact the goal is for all things to communicate to each other in lojban(adding encryption and all that possible, just after you agree on a standard, the agreeing part would be done in lojban), that would allow for computers to understand what you wanted your piece of hardware or software to communicate, just about no matter how in lojbanistan you decided to implement your protocol. The network will be able to hold much more than simple predicates. The entire internet can function through the We With You Network. When we start connecting our wireless routers to our neighbours, and them to their neighbourhoods, you can probably spread through cities just using wireless, maybe later even regions, or countries. In any case, if you are interested in more information feel free to ask, if you don't understand anything, then please ask, you probably aren't the only one. anyone interested in participating, we need: - people to learn lojban(soon we will have english transaltions, though the base will probably always be some derivative of lojban) - people to help design parts of the network, (if you have experience designing anything IT, then you can be sure that your opinion will be valued, as all things need to be taken into account.) - people to help program (any language is fine) - people to help test - people that want to help (we'll find something for you to do) On 10/23/06, Yanis Batura wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ryan Keppel > To: lojban-list@lojban.org, Timothy Hobbs > Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 21:40:07 -0700 > Subject: [lojban] Re: Dropping the speech > > > .u'inai > > > > do tavla zo'e ma .i ko tavla ko > > > > .ionai > > doi ra,ian lo nu do pilno lu ionai li'u na clite .i e'o ko clite vi ti > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.