From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Nov 01 13:31:07 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 01 Nov 2006 13:31:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GfNfZ-0004Nb-AR for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Nov 2006 13:30:45 -0800 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GfNfP-0004NP-4h for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Nov 2006 13:30:45 -0800 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 23so1804196ugr for ; Wed, 01 Nov 2006 13:30:33 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=aBxIV3gz8EFYZGcrB5aJlzXNIfo6E828A1iu4PLTf+O+o8OUI9ZcaaRDcgupwb+KEjGM2ni8z2NmNFOF9l2QCqsY/RF2ob7JCj8xurwh3yMfKp9j01avSzk+29TIxQBT7jVt44HJ6aeX8QtE95yjsMnQ7NiAD6E5jZbEr4svBEo= Received: by 10.78.128.15 with SMTP id a15mr277172hud; Wed, 01 Nov 2006 13:30:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.78.124.16 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Nov 2006 13:30:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 16:30:32 -0500 From: "Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Stress of the penultimate syllable In-Reply-To: <20061101181546.77347.qmail@web81315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_25276_14954934.1162416632817" References: <20061101181546.77347.qmail@web81315.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-archive-position: 12892 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: andrii.z@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ------=_Part_25276_14954934.1162416632817 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 11/1/06, John E Clifford wrote: > > > > --- "Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin" wrote: > > > > > > Is thIs tExt EAsier tO rEAd? I thInk nOt, becAUse yOU cannOt rEAd It At > A > > > nOrmal pAce bUt hAve to slOw dOwn. (It Also lOOks prEtty Ugly.) > > > > > > > please read previous thread on penultimate syllables. English text does > NOT > > emphasize the penultimate syllable. It is stress timed. so you have > stress > > at regular intervals. There don't seem to be any defined rules as to > where > > you should put emphasis in English, so it makes no sense to capitalize > > English. > > Actually, each word in English has a fixed stress. There are precious few > rules to assign stress > (and they are different in different dialects). Marking stress would make > sense in English -- as > it does not generally in Lojban since it varies -- and is significant (i.e., > there are words which > differ only or primarily in stress location, with derivative vowel shift: > produce (v) v. produce > (n)). The stressed-time feature -- which is more literary than > conversational, though we do tend > that way when possible -- is just that we tend to hurry over unstressed > syllables to get to the > stressed ones, so that the time between stressed syllables is about > constant. The favorite sample > is the nursery rhyme, Three Blind Mice, which has three-stressed lines of > (arguably) between three > and eleven syllables. > > > > Try it, write out some text in English in all lower case, normal mixed > case, > > > accented case, and all upper case. The normal mixed case is what > you've > > > trained your brain to read best after years of near constant practice. > It > > > doesn't take kindly to messing that up. > > > > > > > above statement. .e'o try to stay informed, check Wikipedia before you > start > > capitalizing random vowels in English. > > I'm not sure what the point of the response is here: the original claim is > that we learn to read a > certain pattern of letters without reading separate letters and, thus, > when we find different > patters of letters (especially, say, capitals in the middle of words)we > cannot read in the usual > way and have to go back to the slower letter-by-letter style. > > oops quoted wrong line Is thIs tExt EAsier tO rEAd? I thInk nOt, becAUse yOU cannOt rEAd It At A nOrmal pAce bUt hAve to slOw dOwn. (It Also lOOks prEtty Ugly.) that's the line I was refering to with the Wikipedia comment. If you are truly fluent in lOjban then you should have no difficulty understanding all it's forms. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > -- ta'o(by the way) We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and) more on Lojban: http://lojban.org mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) ------=_Part_25276_14954934.1162416632817 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 11/1/06, John E Clifford <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


--- "Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin" <andrii.z@gmail.com> wrote:


>
> Is thIs tExt EAsier tO rEAd? I thInk nOt, becAUse yOU cannOt rEAd It At A
> > nOrmal pAce bUt hAve to slOw dOwn. (It Also lOOks prEtty Ugly.)
> >
>
> please read previous thread on penultimate syllables. English text does NOT
> emphasize the penultimate syllable. It is stress timed. so you have stress
> at regular intervals. There don't seem to be any defined rules as to where
> you should put emphasis in English, so it makes no sense to capitalize
> English.

Actually, each word in English has a fixed stress.  There are precious few rules to assign stress
(and they are different in different dialects). Marking stress would make sense in English -- as
it does not generally in Lojban since it varies -- and is significant (i.e., there are words which
differ only or primarily in stress location, with derivative vowel shift: produce (v) v. produce
(n)). The stressed-time feature -- which is more literary than conversational, though we do tend
that way when possible -- is just that we tend to hurry over unstressed syllables to get to the
stressed ones, so that the time between stressed syllables is about constant.  The favorite sample
is the nursery rhyme, Three Blind Mice, which has three-stressed lines of (arguably) between three
and eleven syllables.


> Try it, write out some text in English in all lower case, normal mixed case,
> > accented case, and all upper case. The normal mixed case is what you've
> > trained your brain to read best after years of near constant practice. It
> > doesn't take kindly to messing that up.
> >
>
> above statement. .e'o try to stay informed, check Wikipedia before you start
> capitalizing random vowels in English.

I'm not sure what the point of the response is here: the original claim is that we learn to read a
certain pattern of letters without reading separate letters and, thus, when we find different
patters of letters (especially, say, capitals in the middle of words)we cannot read in the usual
way and have to go back to the slower letter-by-letter style.
>

oops quoted wrong line
 

Is thIs tExt EAsier tO rEAd? I thInk nOt, becAUse yOU cannOt rEAd It At A nOrmal pAce bUt hAve to slOw dOwn. (It Also lOOks prEtty Ugly.)

that's the line I was refering to with the Wikipedia comment. If you are truly fluent in lOjban then you should have no difficulty understanding all it's forms.

To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/ , or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.




--
ta'o(by the way)  We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and)
more on Lojban: http://lojban.org
mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) ------=_Part_25276_14954934.1162416632817-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.