From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Nov 05 07:34:53 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 05 Nov 2006 07:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ggk10-0005ez-UG for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 05 Nov 2006 07:34:31 -0800 Received: from smtp.mail.umich.edu ([141.211.93.160] helo=skycaptain.mr.itd.umich.edu) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ggk0r-0005en-5g for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 05 Nov 2006 07:34:30 -0800 Received: FROM [141.213.221.81] (bursley-221-81.reshall.umich.edu [141.213.221.81]) BY skycaptain.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 454E043E.B3C15.16838 ; 5 Nov 2006 10:33:18 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: <20061104221637.24770.qmail@web30403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-9--250010635 Message-Id: <8AA95A94-FCE6-4C83-B01F-98494649B966@umich.edu> From: Alex Martini Subject: [lojban] Re: reform Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 10:33:02 -0500 To: lojban-list@lojban.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 12907 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: alexjm@umich.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list --Apple-Mail-9--250010635 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed In case you were wondering, that text is both impossible to read, and contains errors. I expect you wanted {djica}, since {djeci} isn't a word. Same for {ranje} - you want {ranji}. If you insist on using indecipherable writing conventions, at least say something grammatical & interesting so it's worth my time to tease out what you were trying to say. In the mean time, just use the established convention. So far, you've given no justification for why your method is better other than - it's easier for *you* to read; though I doubt even you could read that post fluidly - it shows the stress more clearly; even though the stress is already 100% regular So unless you have any better reasons, I think it's time to cut it out. On second thought, since you use {fe'o}, you are not expecting to send more messages. Or, that was a mistake too and you meant {mu'o}. mu'omi'e aleks On Nov 5, 2006, at 4:38 AM, Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin wrote: > minadjEcilenurAnjefalotivicAsnu.imikAknecIskacUskufola'edi'u.ife'o > > On 11/4/06, Jon MacLeod wrote: > > > --- "Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin" < andrii.z@gmail.com> wrote: > > > In English we don't stress vowels based on the syllable in the > words: > > > > Wikipedia article Stress (Linguistics): > > > > Timing and placement *Further information: Timing > > (linguistics) > > * > > > > English < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language> is a > *stress-timed > > language*; that is, stressed syllables appear at a roughly > constant rate, > > and non-stressed syllables are shortened to accommodate this. Other > > languages have *syllable > timing* ( > > e.g. Spanish < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language>) or > > *moratiming > > * (e.g. Japanese < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ > Japanese_language>), where > > syllables or morae are spoken at a roughly constant rate > regardless of > > stress. > > > > Some languages have fixed stress. That is, stress is placed > always on a > > given syllable, as in > > Finnishand > > Hungarian > (stress always > > on the first syllable) or > > Quechua< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quechua_language>and > > Polish (stress > always on the > > penult < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penult>: one syllable > before the last) > > or on third syllable counting backwards, as in > > Macedonian< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language>(see: > > *Stress in Macedonian > > language Stress_in_Macedonian_language > > > *). Other languages have stress placed on different syllables but > in a > > predictable way, as in Latin > (where > > stress is conditioned by the structure of the penultimate > syllable). They > > are said to have a regular stress rule. > > While I find the above somewhat interesting, I don't see what it > has to with > your annoying convention of capitalizing the stressed vowel in > Lojban texts. > > > as you can see from the above, English is a stress-timed > language. so we > > don't emphasize the penultImate syllabEles. so there would be no > point in > > capitalizing them as you wouldn't pronounce them that way anyways. > > > > The reason I stress the pen-ultimate syllable in lOjban, is > because it needs > > to be stressed, unlike in english where you stress whatever you > want, (shows > > emphasis and such). > > I know that English does not stress the penultimate syllable, where > talking > about Lojban here. However, you are incorrect when you say you can > English in > whatever way you want- you must still put the emphAsis on the > correct syllAble. > > > to show Emphasis in lOjban we use zo ba'e, and the rythym of the > language is > > defined bY the penultimate syllable. ThAt is why I emphasize the > penultimate > > syllable. > > > > nOw that i think about it, perhaps i'll start strEssing english > words. That > > could make them EAsier to read -- mAybe even showing more Emphasis. > > To use an old IRC convention to make my point clear, English does / > not/ stress > certain syllables in a word- the stress is standardized, though > different > segments of the language (such as British and American) have differing > standards. Emphasis is applied to the /entire/ word unless in rare > occurences > such as stating a specific portion- as in the difference between > Jonath/a/n and > Jonath/o/n (which is pretty much a matter of spelling, but I'm not > going to > take the time to come up with a better example). > > As such, putting capitals into words makes them /harder/, not > easier, to read, > is very distracting, and for most purposes is unneeded, especially > in Lojban > where the words naturally stress on the penultimate. > > Last but not least, you are the only person who wants the whole > capitalization > thing, you are also the only one who is doing it. As such, the only > Lojban > texts you will see with the practice of always capitalizing the > stressed vowel > is those you write yourself. I'm sure there is not a single person > in the world > who would care how you write Lojban text that are meant for your > eyes only, so > by all means, do what you will. However, that which you write that > is intended > for others eyes should follow convention, as that is the entire > reason that > such convention exists. > > As a suggestion, if you really wish to put obvious stress into your > writing you > might consider _underlining_ the stressed portions, it makes it > easier for the > rest of us to read, since unlike you we find the capitalized > letters /more/, > not less, difficult. > > Here's a much better idea for you- Start reading the texts aloud, > get used to > automatically stressing penultimately, and cease trying to get the > Lojban > community to put to practice something that is less likely to > happen than me > winning the lottery. (BTW, I don't play the lottery.) > > As an afterthought, I must say that if I seem to be offensive or > rude, that is > not my wish and I apologize. I'm am not trying to be disrespectful > or crass, I > am merely trying to get a point across: "mI klAma lE skUle" is / > harder/ /to/ > /read/ than "mi klama le skule". > > -Jon > > > On 10/31/06, Jon MacLeod wrote: > > > > > > I have a contention to the practice of capitalizing the > stressed syllable > > > in > > > regular text- one, I fInd It mUch hArder tO rEad wIth thE letter > > > capitalized, > > > and secondly, in certain fonts, the capital I and lowercase l look > > > /exactly/ > > > the same. cIlno clIno try it out. > > > > > > -Jon Jones > > > > > > "I have a brain, I've just lost my mind." -Ian McLeod > > > > > > "As a percentage of total universal knowledge, what I know is > > > statistically insignificant." - me > > > > > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > > > Version 3.12 > > > GCS>$ d+(++) s++:-- a- C++ UL P L++>+++++ !E W+(++) N+ o? K- ! > w---- O- > > > M-(+)@ V? PS+++ PE- Y+ PGP- t+ !5-- X(+) R+ !tv-- b+++ DI+ D+ G > e* h+* > > > r+(++) y+(++) > > > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________ > > > Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right > on the New > > > Yahoo.com > > > (http://www.yahoo.com/preview) > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list- > request@lojban.org > > > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/ > lsg2/, or if > > > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ta'o(by the way) We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i > (and) > > more on Lojban: http://lojban.org > > mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) > > > > > -Jon Jones > > "I have a brain, I've just lost my mind." -Ian McLeod > > "As a percentage of total universal knowledge, what I know is > statistically insignificant." - me > > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version 3.12 > GCS>$ d+(++) s++:-- a- C++ UL P L++>+++++ !E W+(++) N+ o? K- !w---- > O- M-(+)@ V? PS+++ PE- Y+ PGP- t+ !5-- X(+) R+ !tv-- b+++ DI+ D+ G > e* h+* r+(++) y+(++) > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ____________________ > Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and > get things done faster. > (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta) > > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list- > request@lojban.org > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, > or if > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help. > > > > > -- > ta'o(by the way) We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and) > more on Lojban: http://lojban.org > mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin) --Apple-Mail-9--250010635 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 In case you were wondering, that = text is both impossible to read, and contains errors.

I expect you wanted = {djica}, since {djeci} isn't a word. Same for {ranje} - you want = {ranji}.

If = you insist on using indecipherable writing conventions, at least say = something=A0grammatical & interesting so it's worth my time to tease = out what you were trying to say.

In the mean time, just use = the established convention. So far, you've given no justification for = why your method is better other than
- it's easier for *you* = to read; though I doubt even you could read that post = fluidly
- it shows the stress more clearly; even though the = stress is already 100% regular

So unless you have any = better reasons, I think it's time to cut it out.

On second thought, since = you use {fe'o}, you are not expecting to send more messages. Or, that = was a mistake too and you meant {mu'o}.

mu'omi'e = aleks

On Nov 5, 2006, at 4:38 AM, Andrii = (lOkadin) Zvorygin wrote:

minadjEcilenurAnjefalotivicAsnu.imikAknecIskacUskufola'edi'u= .ife'o

On 11/4/06, Jon MacLeod <eye_onus@yahoo.com > = wrote:


--- "Andrii (lOkadin) Zvorygin" < andrii.z@gmail.com> = wrote:

> In English we don't stress vowels based on the = syllable in the words:
>
> Wikipedia article Stress = (Linguistics):
>
> Timing and placement *Further = information: Timing
> (linguistics)<http://en.w= ikipedia.org/wiki/Timing_%28linguistics%29>
> = *
>
> English < = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language> is a = *stress-timed
> language*; that is, stressed syllables appear at a = roughly constant rate,
> and non-stressed syllables are shortened = to accommodate this. Other
> languages have *syllable <http://en.wikipedia.org/wik= i/Syllable> timing* (
> e.g. Spanish < = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language>) or
> = *mora<http://en.wik= ipedia.org/wiki/Mora_%28linguistics%29>timing
> * (e.g. = Japanese < http://en.wikipedi= a.org/wiki/Japanese_language>), where
> syllables or morae = are spoken at a roughly constant rate regardless of
> = stress.
>
> Some languages have fixed stress. That is, = stress is placed always on a
> given syllable, as in
> = Finnish<http://en.wikipedia= .org/wiki/Finnish_language >and
> Hungarian <http://en.wikiped= ia.org/wiki/Hungarian_language> (stress always
> on the = first syllable) or
> Quechua< = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quechua_language>and
> Polish = <http://en.wikipedia.= org/wiki/Polish_language> (stress always on the
> penult = < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/= Penult>: one syllable before the last)
> or on third = syllable counting backwards, as in
> Macedonian< = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language>(see:
> = *Stress in Macedonian
> language<http:/= /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress_in_Macedonian_language >
> = *). Other languages have stress placed on different syllables but in = a
> predictable way, as in Latin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L= atin> (where
> stress is conditioned by the structure of = the penultimate syllable). They
> are said to have a regular = stress rule.

While I find the above somewhat interesting, I don't = see what it has to with
your annoying convention of capitalizing the = stressed vowel in Lojban texts.

> as you can see from the = above, English is a stress-timed language. so we
> don't emphasize = the penultImate syllabEles. so there would be no point in
> = capitalizing them as you wouldn't pronounce them that way anyways. =
>
> The reason I stress the pen-ultimate syllable in = lOjban, is because it needs
> to be stressed, unlike in english = where you stress whatever you want, (shows
> emphasis and = such).

I know that English does not stress the penultimate = syllable, where talking
about Lojban here. However, you are = incorrect when you say you can English in
whatever way you want- you = must still put the emphAsis on the correct syllAble.

> to show = Emphasis in lOjban we use zo ba'e, and the rythym of the language is =
> defined bY the penultimate syllable. ThAt is why I emphasize = the penultimate
> syllable.
>
> nOw that i think about = it, perhaps i'll start strEssing english words. That
> could make = them EAsier to read -- mAybe even showing more Emphasis.

To use = an old IRC convention to make my point clear, English does /not/ = stress
certain syllables in a word- the stress is standardized, = though different
segments of the language (such as British and = American) have differing
standards. Emphasis is applied to the = /entire/ word unless in rare occurences
such as stating a specific = portion- as in the difference between Jonath/a/n and
Jonath/o/n = (which is pretty much a matter of spelling, but I'm not going to =
take the time to come up with a better example).

As such, = putting capitals into words makes them /harder/, not easier, to = read,
is very distracting, and for most purposes is unneeded, = especially in Lojban
where the words naturally stress on the = penultimate.

Last but not least, you are the only person who = wants the whole capitalization
thing, you are also the only one who = is doing it. As such, the only Lojban
texts you will see with the = practice of always capitalizing the stressed vowel
is those you = write yourself. I'm sure there is not a single person in the = world
who would care how you write Lojban text that are meant for = your eyes only, so
by all means, do what you will. However, that = which you write that is intended
for others eyes should follow = convention, as that is the entire reason that
such convention = exists.

As a suggestion, if you really wish to put obvious stress = into your writing you
might consider _underlining_ the stressed = portions, it makes it easier for the
rest of us to read, since = unlike you we find the capitalized letters /more/,
not less, = difficult.

Here's a much better idea for you- Start reading the = texts aloud, get used to
automatically stressing penultimately, and = cease trying to get the Lojban
community to put to practice = something that is less likely to happen than me
winning the lottery. = (BTW, I don't play the lottery.)

As an afterthought, I must say = that if I seem to be offensive or rude, that is
not my wish and I = apologize. I'm am not trying to be disrespectful or crass, I
am = merely trying to get a point across: "mI klAma lE skUle" is /harder/ = /to/
/read/ than "mi klama le skule".

-Jon

> On = 10/31/06, Jon MacLeod <eye_onus@yahoo.com> = wrote:
> >
> > I have a contention to the practice of = capitalizing the stressed syllable
> > in
> > regular = text- one, I fInd It mUch hArder tO rEad wIth thE letter
> > = capitalized,
> > and secondly, in certain fonts, the capital I = and lowercase l look
> > /exactly/
> > the same. = cIlno clIno try it out.
> >
> > -Jon Jones
> = >
> > "I have a brain, I've just lost my mind." -Ian = McLeod
> >
> > "As a percentage of total universal = knowledge, what I know is
> > statistically insignificant." - = me
> >
> > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> = > Version 3.12
> > GCS>$ d+(++) s++:-- a- C++ UL P = L++>+++++ !E W+(++) N+ o? K- !w---- O-
> > M-(+)@ V? PS+++ = PE- Y+ PGP- t+ !5-- X(+) R+ !tv-- b+++ DI+ D+ G e* h+*
> > = r+(++) y+(++)
> > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
> = >
> >
> >
> >
> > =
>
______________________________________________________________= ______________________
> > Get your email and see which of your = friends are online - Right on the New
> > Yahoo.com
> > (http://www.yahoo.com/preview)> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from = this list, send mail to = lojban-list-request@lojban.org
> > with the subject = unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or = if
> > you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for = help.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> = ta'o(by the way)=A0=A0We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and)
> = more on Lojban: http://lojban.org
> mu'oimi'e = lOkadin (Over, my name is lOkadin)
>


-Jon = Jones

"I have a brain, I've just lost my mind." -Ian = McLeod

"As a percentage of total universal knowledge, what I know = is statistically insignificant." - me

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE = BLOCK-----
Version 3.12
GCS>$ d+(++) s++:-- a- C++ UL P = L++>+++++ !E W+(++) N+ o? K- !w---- O- M-(+)@ V? PS+++ PE- Y+ PGP- t+ = !5-- X(+) R+ !tv-- b+++ DI+ D+ G e* h+* r+(++) y+(++)
------END GEEK = CODE = BLOCK------



_______________________________________________= ___________________________________________
Check out the New Yahoo! = Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.
(http://advision.webe= vents.yahoo.com/mailbeta)



To unsubscribe from this = list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.= org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or = if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for = help.




--
ta'o(by = the way)=A0=A0We With You Network at: http://lokiworld.org .i(and)
more = on Lojban: = http://lojban.org
mu'oimi'e lOkadin (Over, my name is = lOkadin)

= --Apple-Mail-9--250010635-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.