From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Dec 03 08:06:40 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 03 Dec 2006 08:06:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gqtr8-00028k-QZ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Dec 2006 08:06:18 -0800 Received: from ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com ([205.158.62.199]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Gqtr3-00028a-CY for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 03 Dec 2006 08:06:18 -0800 Received: by ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 86C7A2F912; Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:06:12 +0000 (GMT) Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Arika Okrent" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 08:06:12 -0800 Subject: [lojban] Re: sign language in Lojban Received: from [68.238.190.37] by ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com with http for arika@okrent.com; Sun, 03 Dec 2006 08:06:12 -0800 X-Originating-Ip: 68.238.190.37 X-Originating-Server: ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com Message-Id: <20061203160612.86C7A2F912@ws6-3.us4.outblaze.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 13303 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: arika@okrent.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Some quick credentials so you know where I'm coming from: I'm fluent in ASL, I got an MA in Linguistics at Gallaudet (the deaf university in DC, all our linguistics classes were conducted in ASL -- that's why I had to become fluent), and I know a lot of deaf people. None of which makes me the final authority on anything, but there it is. Stokoe's system is not a full writing system--you wouldn't write a letter in it, but it is a good rough pass at a phonological transcription for individual signs. It is based on breaking a sign down into four components -- handshape, location, movement and orientation. It fell out of favor when sign language phonologists started using Liddell and Johnson's model, based on autosegmental phonology (what phonologists did in the 80's). It is based on breaking a sign into a linear string of movements and holds -- each defined as a cluster of other features. I'm not up on what sign language phonologists use these days. Probabaly some version of Liddell and Johnson, or some version of the currently trendy "optimality theory" way of doing phonology. Anyway, these are only good for doing phonological analysis. If you want to do syntax you just use English glosses for the signs, superscripted with stuff that may endure over multiple signs. And you would never use these systems to write a letter or anything. In fact, you wouldn't use any sign writing system for that. Many have tried to come up with one, but none have gotten any traction. It may be fun to think about the challenges of representing a 3D, temporally simultaneous language in a 2D linear medium, but as a practical matter, it's all moot. Deaf people simply have no need or want for sign writing. Especially with current technology allowing video conversation. -arika > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com > To: lojban-list@lojban.org > Subject: [lojban] sign language in Lojban > Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 07:53:07 EST > > > In a message dated 12/3/2006 4:22:19 AM Central Standard Time, lojbab via > ecartis@digitalkingdom.org writes: > > > > The real test might be if someone tries to express all of the features and > > assumptions of sign language into Lojban. This was something that came up > > once (I'm assuming it wasn't you - the person, whose name I can't remember, > > but s/he was especially interested written transcriptions of sign language, > > I think based on choreography notation - seemed to think Lojban could meet > > the challenge, if in no other way by coming up with verbal representations > > of written sign language). You may be in a better position to evaluate, > > having examined sign language linguistically. > > > > If anyone knows about this, please post it. I'm very interested in both > writing sign languages and signing spoken languages. > > stevo > ************ Arika Okrent arika@okrent.com http://www.wickedoasis.org/arika To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.