From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Jan 06 07:30:27 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H3DUL-0005gu-GY for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:29:43 -0800 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.185]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H3DU1-0005g0-97 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:29:37 -0800 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c31so13749678nfb for ; Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:29:17 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=NcuVbdFyNm5cuGmKSLuP11TFgbjD1MOa6ThDJkyWFwKH54bLQZBuVJ4vhI5I46z/KNzc9cDTosGbfqk2nW5Y7X8nF8V4vzeFQ23L2wsMxFE13I076KRUeL/ZqSymOiUiqMYmdJQ+zRJZSeEBlK8/wnjKL3WYJG3RK1hN0PLMyZU= Received: by 10.82.113.6 with SMTP id l6mr2488079buc.1168097357710; Sat, 06 Jan 2007 07:29:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.115.20 with HTTP; Sat, 6 Jan 2007 07:29:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560701060729q5c88241bi8f13ad6a79a4a76e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 12:29:17 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Duty, promice etc... In-Reply-To: <20070106025933.16835.qmail@web81313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560701051450v6f30c761v3691f4b69289e100@mail.gmail.com> <20070106025933.16835.qmail@web81313.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 13518 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 1/5/07, John E Clifford wrote: > --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > > > > Which English expressions involving the noun "promise" should > > not be translated by {lo se nupre} in Lojban? > > As noted earlier, "make a promise" and probably "break a promise" > and "keep a promise." If we want to translate those as {broda lo brode}, it seems to me that {lo se nupre} is the obvious choice for {lo brode} and the problematic bit would be what to use for {broda}, since {zmadu}, {porpygau} and {ralte} would be too metaphorical. We'd have to go with something more mundane such as {nupre lo se nupre}, {nalzu'e lo se nupre} and {zukte lo se nupre}. Or we could avoid using that form and say {nupre da} in the first case. But I still don't see what else you could use for {lo brode}. Certainly not {lo nu nupre} or {lo su'u nupre} as far as I can see. What I'm trying to say is that if we want to translate "a promise" as a sumti, {lo se nupre} would seem to be the only? choice, and not {lo NU nupre} for some NU. > all of these can be done (equivalently though > not similarly) with {nupre} or even {lo se nupre}but that doesn't mean > that {lo se nupre} is good Lojban for "promise" -- the context has to > change too much. I guess that's what I don't see yet. > > Which English expressions involving the noun "obligation" should > > not be translated by {lo se bilga} in Lojban? > > "Has an obligation" at least, probably the other main cases (but > "obligation" is different from "promise" is a couple of ways: it is more > general, need not involve something verbal (and so may not have a > definite beginning), can end in other ways that fulfillment or release > and so on. "Has an obligation" would not be {ponse lo se bilga}, but the problem again seems to be with {ponse}, not with {lo se bilga}. Again the most obvious choice for me would be the redundant {bilga lo se bilga} or just {bilga da}. But "obligation" would not be {lo NU bilga}. Or maybe you are thinking of something like {ckaji lo ka bilga}, "has the property of being obliged"? Is that how you read the "has" of "has an obligation", like the one of "has a property"? mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.