From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Jan 07 05:00:27 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 07 Jan 2007 05:00:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H3XcS-0001nD-1K for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 07 Jan 2007 04:59:27 -0800 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.191]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1H3Xbt-0001mg-0i for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 07 Jan 2007 04:59:17 -0800 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c31so14241407nfb for ; Sun, 07 Jan 2007 04:58:45 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=DOz2mZxfv4i6+TUQ0So1NjI7gsfsoRqg+aymd8N80yuSSTsvBtJZD26K8xoh4ufMiwjBCDTUowIQMXWEN5ltqtBCesFcUeuJLF1bgfqoX3pTC3/M32o/bzHwQ3LZTw5IqVpOCNvVhxonVqD8vkJBVdx0ZFVgQgYmdJ16s1sCyvo= Received: by 10.82.107.15 with SMTP id f15mr2501177buc.1168174725351; Sun, 07 Jan 2007 04:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.82.115.20 with HTTP; Sun, 7 Jan 2007 04:58:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560701070458t7243c3a0n2368d08b771cd615@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 09:58:45 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Duty, promice etc... In-Reply-To: <611088.72555.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560701060757o1c0b3914w2f28416a2858cb29@mail.gmail.com> <611088.72555.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 13521 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Promises, requests, commands and others are *unrealized events*. If and when they become real events, they cease being promises, requests and commands. That's why we don't "do" promises, requests and commands, but rather we "carry them out", from the world of unrealized events and into reality. We only "do" real events. Promises and requests can be "made" by the speaker, the speaker mostly unconstrained when creating these imaginary events. Orders and permissions, on the other hand, can only be "given", because the speaker is constrained to select them from the preestablished domain of events they have authority over. Once they are "given" by the speaker to the hearer, the hearer "has" them until they "carry them out" into reality. Similarly wishes can be "made" since any implausible unrealized event can be wished for (indeed wishes only tend to "come true" in fairy tales or in advertisements). Hopes and fears on the other hand, which are events unknown to be realized, can't be "made", they can only be "had", because they must already be among the believed to be realizable events. Wishes, hopes and fears too cease to be wishes, hopes and fears when and if they become real events. These differ from promises, requests and commands in that they need not be "carried out" by anyone from the world of unrealized events and into reality, they may just happen and thus become real events by themselves. Promises, requests and commands can be "made" and/or "given" in many different ways, directly or indirectly. The way to "make" them directly, in Lojban, is to invoke the imaginary event by saying a bridi that describes them and tagging the bridi with the corresponding attitudinal or vocative: nu'e do'u mi ba dunda lo relselxi'u do Promise: I will give you a bicycle. .e'i lo smuci cu nenri lo re moi dacru Constraint: the spoons go in the second drawer. (I chose a third person command to avoid the quirkiness of {do} -> {ko} in commands, requests, etc.) Since promises, requests and orders are events (albeit unrealized ones), they can be referred to in Lojban with {lo nu ...}: {lo nu mi ba dunda lo relselxi'u do}, {lo nu lo smuci cu nenri lo re moi dacru}. And we can also, of course, refer to these unrealized events by other descriptions {lo se nupre}, {lo se cpedu}, {lo se minde}, etc. It would be interesting to figure out how to say "carry out" in Lojban, i.e. how do we describe the action of taking an unrealized event that is a promise, a request, an order, etc. and bring it into reality. {zukte}, as it has been pointed out, is not quite it, because it gives no indication that the done deed is one that has been taken from realm where promises, requests and orders live. I proposed {mansa} but I'm not quite happy with it (and its place structure is ordered the wrong way anyway). Any ideas? Also we need words for "breaking" a promise, i.e. removing it from the world of unrealized events where promises live by destroying it, not by "carrying it out" ({fliba} has been suggested, does it work?) and similarly words for "rejecting" or "accepting" a suggestion, etc. Lojban seems still to be very underdeveloped in this area. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.