From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Jun 30 21:10:03 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 30 Jun 2007 21:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I4qkp-0001EL-L8 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 30 Jun 2007 21:09:44 -0700 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.183]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I4qkm-0001E2-3W for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 30 Jun 2007 21:09:42 -0700 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so2291259pyi for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2007 21:09:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=S6mOpePJrAuP5Ys8fxmESWD2zjh86KwoC8kVZOBq4b0B5qxYSbIgLPet8BWsZDopt+OTNNcilq/giXKsxJ0FcDrLe/V8iEbG9gC4wGRFgiv1OlDZZwbyl5yKuZQY9IKFBtadVWWoyVW3wAqy13RYLg1ng3JoxGCVBBRAUX/V/0k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=mFRFpuVxroMKFmpmI/cmuriZlevdIy9Yz4m5JmNgtd1uFAutWwMoxo304LwQ95CxMytMYpoM8/+NhDVgMuXGNnRw10lz4AQ4ivAMYAcJe6eRjQLiJSULVUYzaYF/jXf6uKoLGcvWW0l5hOHfN9c8eqnt1KTA+G2MLpaSb97zVso= Received: by 10.64.233.12 with SMTP id f12mr5369129qbh.1183262978199; Sat, 30 Jun 2007 21:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.191.16 with HTTP; Sat, 30 Jun 2007 21:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <702226df0706302109s9278f55r131185730509de0d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 22:09:38 -0600 From: "Jon \"Top Hat\" Jones" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: names of the months In-Reply-To: <925d17560706300735g7fefb83bn73fd08b74ea39cf7@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_26448_3986239.1183262978146" References: <200706292003.14636.phma@phma.optus.nu> <01ca01c7babc$cce00580$0302a8c0@TOP> <200706292257.15939.phma@phma.optus.nu> <702226df0706292139p666c4d2bn7fd5fbd12e4e805e@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560706300735g7fefb83bn73fd08b74ea39cf7@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 13767 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list ------=_Part_26448_3986239.1183262978146 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 6/30/07, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > > On 6/30/07, Jon Top Hat Jones wrote: > > On 6/29/07, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > > On Friday 29 June 2007 22:17, Nathaniel Krause wrote: > > > > Why not just cmevla, like we do for the hours? > > > > > > Huh?? The hours are numbers. You say {ti'u} to indicate that it's a > time. > > You could say the same about {de'i} and months, although months are > more like minutes than like hours, as they go in the middle. > > {de'i li pi'e xa pi'e} would be "In June" without specifying day or year. > > > > The names of the months have a place structure "x1 is the January/etc= . > of > > year > > > x2", so they have to be brivla. So you can say {jbena fi le pamumoi b= e > > > le .ianvari be le 2001moi}. > > You could also say {jbena fi le 15moi be le 1moi be le 2001moi}. > But I agree that having a break from numbers can be nice. > > > I think I prefer using number form for month, so January would be > {pavma'i} > > =3D "x1 is the first month of the year x2", Febuary =3D {relma'i}, Marc= h =3D > > {cibma'i}, etc. > > One issue with those is that the most direct interpretaion of them > gives "month", "bimester", "trimester", ..., "semester", because > of the place structure of {masti}. That may be true, but the place structure of {pavma'i} and related wouldn't be based off of {pa masti}, but of {pamoi masti}, the {moi} being left out for the sake of shortness. Also, my personal preference for things like trimester and such would be to not use a lujvo, and instead use either {ci lo masti} or {lo ci masti}, whichever of "3 of a month-span" or "a 3 month-span" is better. On a semi-related note, which of those is equivalent to {ci masti}? > Also, are there suggested/official lujvo/gismu for the days of the month? > If > > not, I propose the following: Since {pavdei} is "Monday" and etc., use > > {pavdje}, etc. or possibly {pavmoidei}/{pavmoidje} (though I don't muc= h > > like the length of the latter two...) for the days of the month, with > the > > meaning "x1 is the Nth day of the month x2 of the year x3" > > The official rules are that choice of rafsi should not affect the meaning > of > a lujvo, so at least in principle {pavdei}, {pavdje} and {pavdjedi} shoul= d > all have the same meaning. Fortunately, "should not" and "can not" aren't the same. Then again, if roma'a decide to go with the terms for days as you suggest below, that rule presents no problem. The same problem of months applies in the case of days, the most > direct interpretation of {zeldei}, based on place structure, is "week". > There are no common words in English for "two-day period", > "three-day period" and so on, but that's what place structure > suggests. Granted, but again, {pamoi djedi}, not {pa djedi}, as with {pavma'i}. Another issue with them might be the confusion that such names > could cause to people such as Portuguese speakers whose native > language calls "Monday" the second day, and so on. I don't know > how bad that problem would be for them. That's a problem with numbers for days of the week, certainly, but not for days of the month, I wouldn't think. I actually like the Japanese and Korean system: > > soldei Sun's day > lurdei Moon's day > fagdei day of the planet of fire (Mars) > jaurdei day of the planet of water (Mercury) > mudydei day of the planet of wood (Jupiter) > jimdei day of the planet of metal (Venus) > derdei day of the planet of earth (Saturn) > > (Note that Saturday is associated with Saturn, the planet of earth, > not with planet Earth.) > > mu'o mi'e xorxes I don't remember all of them, so I'll have to look it up, but the English names for days are derived from the following: Sunday =3D Sun Day Monday =3D Moon Day Tuesday =3D Tiu's Day (Tiu being a translation of Mars, not sure of languag= e, most likely Norse) Wednesday =3D Woden's Day (Woden =3D Mercury, again Norse? (Oden?)) Thursday =3D Thor's Day (Definite Norse, translation of Jove/Jupiter) Friday =3D Frigg/Freyja's Day (Germanic goddess of beauty, equivalent to Venus) Saturday =3D Saturn's Day According to reference.com, the Romance languages use the same system as th= e Japanese, and the Latin-derived naming is nearly universal- Russian and Portuguese are mentioned as using numbering- 5th-day in Russian and 6th-day in Port., and Hindi uses the Sanskrit name for the planet Venus for Friday at least, probably the others as well. Based on Historical Inertia, I have now changed my vote for days of week to be Latin derivations and not number-derived. Of course, this also solves th= e problem of which day is 1st-day. Well, more circumvent than solve, but whatever. --=20 mu'o mi'e .topy'at. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu ------=_Part_26448_3986239.1183262978146 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 6/30/07, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
On 6/30/07, Jon Top Hat Jones <eyeo= nus@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/29/07, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
> &g= t; On Friday 29 June 2007 22:17, Nathaniel Krause wrote:
> > > Why not just cmevla, like we do for the hours?
> &= gt;
> > Huh?? The hours are numbers. You say {ti'u} to indicat= e that it's a time.

You could say the same about {de'i} and = months, although months are
more like minutes than like hours, as they go in the middle.

{de= 'i li pi'e xa pi'e} would be "In June" without specif= ying day or year.

> > The names of the months have a place str= ucture "x1 is the January/etc. of
> year
> > x2", so they have to be brivla. So you can = say {jbena fi le pamumoi be
> > le .ianvari be le 2001moi}.
You could also say {jbena fi le 15moi be le 1moi be le 2001moi}.
But I = agree that having a break from numbers can be nice.

> I think I prefer using number form for month, so January would= be {pavma'i}
> =3D "x1 is the first month of the year x2&qu= ot;, Febuary =3D {relma'i}, March =3D
> {cibma'i}, etc.
One issue with those is that the most direct interpretaion of them
gives= "month", "bimester", "trimester", ..., "= ;semester", because
of the place structure of {masti}.

That may be true, but the place structure of {pavma'i} and rel= ated wouldn't be based off of {pa masti}, but of {pamoi masti}, the {mo= i} being left out for the sake of shortness.

Also, my personal prefe= rence for things like trimester and such would be to not use a lujvo, and i= nstead use either {ci lo masti} or {lo ci masti}, whichever of "3 of a= month-span" or "a 3 month-span" is better.

On a semi-related note, which of those is equivalent to {ci masti}?=

>= ; Also, are there suggested/official lujvo/gismu for the days of the month?= If
> not, I propose the following: Since {pavdei} is "Monday"= and etc., use
> {pavdje}, etc. or possibly {pavmoidei}/{pavmoidje}&n= bsp; (though I don't much
> like the length of the latter tw= o...) for the days of the month, with the
> meaning "x1 is the Nth day of the month x2 of the year x3&quo= t;

The official rules are that choice of rafsi should not affect the= meaning of
a lujvo, so at least in principle {pavdei}, {pavdje} and {pa= vdjedi} should
all have the same meaning.

Fortunately, "shou= ld not" and "can not" aren't the same. Then again, if ro= ma'a decide to go with the terms for days as you suggest below, that ru= le presents no problem.

The= same problem of months applies in the case of days, the most
direct int= erpretation of {zeldei}, based on place structure, is "week".
There are no common words in English for "two-day period","three-day period" and so on, but that's what place structur= e
suggests.

Granted, but again, {pamoi djedi}, not = {pa djedi}, as with {pavma'i}.

Ano= ther issue with them might be the confusion that such names
could cause = to people such as Portuguese speakers whose native
language calls "Monday" the second day, and so on. I don'= t know
how bad that problem would be for them.

That= 's a problem with numbers for days of the week, certainly, but not for = days of the month, I wouldn't think. 

I actua= lly like the Japanese and Korean system:

soldei   Sun'= s day
lurdei    Moon's day
fagdei   day of the planet of fire (Mars)
jaurdei &nb= sp;day of the planet of water (Mercury)
mudydei  day of the pl= anet of wood (Jupiter)
jimdei   day of the planet of metal (Ve= nus)
derdei   day of the planet of earth (Saturn)

(Note that Saturday is associated with Saturn, the planet of earth,=
not with planet Earth.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes

I don't remember all of them, so I'll have to look it up, but= the English names for days are derived from the following:

Sunday =3D Sun Day
Monday =3D Moon Day
Tuesday =3D Tiu's = Day (Tiu being a translation of Mars, not sure of language, most likely Nor= se)
Wednesday =3D Woden's Day (Woden =3D Mercury, again Norse? (Oden= ?))
Thursday =3D Thor's Day (Definite Norse, translation of Jove/Jupiter)Friday =3D Frigg/Freyja's Day (Germanic goddess of beauty, equivalent= to Venus)
Saturday =3D Saturn's Day

According to reference.com, the Romance languages use the same system as the Japanes= e, and the Latin-derived naming is nearly universal- Russian and Portuguese= are mentioned as using numbering- 5th-day in Russian and 6th-day in Port.,= and Hindi uses the Sanskrit name for the planet Venus for Friday at least,= probably the others as well.

Based on Historical Inertia, I have now changed my vote for days of= week to be Latin derivations and not number-derived. Of course, this also = solves the problem of which day is 1st-day. Well, more circumvent than solv= e, but whatever.

--
mu'o mi'e .topy'at.
.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu ------=_Part_26448_3986239.1183262978146-- To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.