From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Sep 21 06:29:08 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:29:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IYiZA-0005ck-C3 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:29:08 -0700 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IYiZ7-0005cR-0F for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:29:08 -0700 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 4so638763nfv for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:29:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=0wR03I2W/R4Qwb2YZxKiWAPcscCJbSffPxbevnfbjP8=; b=O/AQGWzu4fFez09Uq0y6+QtKXPSJRZZCiXE4hu4rW8dOgSL4pND2F0WxuW2CnG3ee2DPwR3ffYNGPr+vgQSX2Jedz79Fs8DF/dEbR1YWY7AJAQjbZF6uEu7GOz663foX6eFfaSMhupC20oZWvlhqdD6VBGeh42vEEYPC0x3E7Wo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=AVPPCCHK4xu/OviWT6QXAUixXfnNj5T6txCw70df2BF7bMXQJAV/EQfzkRx9wFJkvDjJjE/ncAcyiAu+/3FXF0c9L8R21IicMqDj/SiIiErF+f+hfUgFsmufykLOmCCRV7OMPhUNcC4oRKyDAmTsdqGGzLu3Zd9GI2uJ6LFaUBU= Received: by 10.86.86.12 with SMTP id j12mr366667fgb.1190381341931; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.86.13 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560709210629t4ca3f6a4vd4acc35a8923873e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:29:01 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] natfe & talsa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 13832 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 9/21/07, Daniel Goetzmann wrote: > > Two gismu questions: > Have I understood correctly that natfe is not agentive (du'u in x1, no > person) but in the sense of "The results of the experiments contradict the > theory"? Yes, although I think every time I have seen it used, it has been with the incorrect meaning of "person x1 denies that x2 is true". I don't think English "deny" is really used with the sense of {natfe}, so it was a poor choice of keyword. > I'm not sure about the meaning of talsa: Is it challenge/defy > (German:herausfordern/fordern) (ji-)or is it challenge/question/dispute > (German:bestreiten, bezweifeln, in Frage stellen)? I've always understood it as the former, and that's how I translated it to Spanish, but then that requires an action in x3, not a property: "To call to engage in a contest, fight, or competition: challenged me to a game of chess. To invite with defiance; dare: challenged him to contradict her. See Synonyms at defy." The second sense: "To take exception to; call into question; dispute: a book that challenges established beliefs." fits better with a poperty in x3, but not so well with requiring a person in x1. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.